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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we are failing as a society?

68 replies

Udderly · 01/02/2011 09:56

My DH calls me a 'crusty' when I come out with these views :)
I am sitting here with my beautiful DD fast asleep, all warm and snuggly in my lap. This to me is what life is all about. I've just read a thread on another site by a mother who is devastated at the prospect of returning to work. This isn't a SAHM v's working mom debate - each to their own - but I wonder if previous generations had it right and we have it all wrong?

I'd love the idea of a house full of kids, with a number of generations, men who lovingly work the land, good wholesome natural food, children running around playing in the fresh air, time... No commuting to the daily grind, stressing about work, stressing about bills, being absolutely exhausted come evening time and sitting in front of a big advertising machine all night.

Have we gotten it all wrong or am I just a big crusty at heart?

OP posts:
AbsDuCroissant · 01/02/2011 10:41

Or - read Anna Karenina to get an idea of how limited women's choices really were - what not being able to go out to work actually meant.

Chil1234 · 01/02/2011 10:42

"I'd love the idea of a house full of kids, with a number of generations, men who lovingly work the land, good wholesome natural food, children running around playing in the fresh air, time... "

Even as recently as 60 years ago... a 'house full of kids' meant women's bodies knackered before their time through constant child-rearing pre-pill.... 'a number of generations'... meant women caring not only for children but also several elderly relatives under the same roof..... 'men who lovingly work the land'... meant men having tight control of the purse-strings and using the witholding of money as a way to subjugate women.... 'wholesome natural food'.... produced by the same women that were constantly pregnant, looking after elderly relatives, children and all the household chores besides. Lob in the practices of women having to give up any jobs on marriage, handing over any money or posessions to their husbands on marriage... and it was rough to be a woman.

I'd start getting some good old feminist literature out of the library and seeing why so many women went nuts trying to escape exactly that constricted lifestyle.

AbsDuCroissant · 01/02/2011 10:46

There's a quote from Dolly (AK's sister in law, married with 5 DCs, husband regularly has affairs) in Anna Karenina, towards the end where she's talking about how crap everything is:

  • she can't stop having chidlren (inadequate/non-existent contraception measures)
  • the drain all the life out of her
  • her body is knackered
  • her husband's no longer interested and so runs off and has affairs with who knows who
  • she can't leave - no money, nowhere to go, no way of earning money.
Udderly · 01/02/2011 10:47

I take everything on board. But, when I see people spending a lifetime in the workforce doing unfulfilling work that they hate only to retire and then die, families ripped apart by crippling debt, depression, suicide, addictions, loneliness, loss of community, etc etc are we really that better off?

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 01/02/2011 10:49

Yes we really are that much better off.

FindingStuffToChuckOut · 01/02/2011 10:50

worrying about the world at large, by way of sweeping statements & massive generalisations, isn't going to take you anywhere you really want to be is it now?

PlentyOfParsnips · 01/02/2011 10:51

It can work in a communal arrangement. I've lived in a couple of near self-sufficient communes and yes, it's exhausting, but it is a very satisfying way of life too. In the end, I decided it wasn't for me, long term, but it's left me with a deep appreciation for the simple things in life.

It would, of course, have been an entirely different kettle of fish if I hadn't had the option to move back to the smoke when I wanted to.

PlentyOfParsnips · 01/02/2011 10:53

try here

StuffingGoldBrass · 01/02/2011 10:56

Yes, we are better off. Women have ful legal human status, we don't have to have more children than our bodies or household budgets can cope with, we can dump abusive partners and live alone, we can work and earn our own money. We have access to good plentiful food - even those households that do live in takeaways are getting more nutrition than the urban poor 100 years ago.
We have mass communication which makes it easier for people to realise when they are (for instance) living in an abuse situation or even just very isolated, that they are not alone and there are others like them.
Things are not perfect (though they are better in the developed world than in the developing world) but the gains that have been made in modern times make up for any mythical golden age crap (which was only for a few people at the time anyway) that's allegedly been lost.

Litchick · 01/02/2011 10:56

OP, why focus on debt, suicide, addictions, loneliness?

These things have been around since the dawn of man and will always be with us.

But for most of us that is absolutely not the sum of our lives.

It's not yet eleven o clock, but lots of nice things have happened to me today:
I had a long telephone conversation with my Mum.
I ate a delicious bowl of yogurt and blueberries.
A joke on the radio made me laugh till the tears came...

Chil1234 · 01/02/2011 10:57

".....when I see people spending a lifetime in the workforce doing unfulfilling work that they hate only to retire and then die, families ripped apart by crippling debt, depression, suicide, addictions, loneliness, loss of community, etc etc are we really that better off?"

And you think all that is a new thing? Debt depression, suicide etc., weren't invented yesterday and neither were unfulfilling jobs for men and women alike. Debt, depression and suicide might even have been more common where households were dependent upon one wage-earner because the woman was made to give up her job or have far more children than they could afford. Many women used to drink or tranquilise themselves because their lives stuck at home were so mind-numbingly awful and there was no escape.

BaggedandTagged · 01/02/2011 10:59

A lot of people bemoan the loss of extended family, but then when their parents get old they dread the idea of having them live with them and being their carers.

What we really mean is "I like the idea of my parents living close by and babysitting a lot, but I don't want to dedicate 10 yrs of my life looking after them when they're failing"

NinkyNonker · 01/02/2011 11:00

Yanbu to want to slow things down a little, I agree. But you can do that within your own family without returning to medieval times.

Litchick · 01/02/2011 11:03

Bagged I think a lot of people bemoan all sorts of things that they could easily change if they wanted.

But they only want the up sides, not the full picture.

gordyslovesheep · 01/02/2011 11:06

I take everything on board. But, when I see people spending a lifetime in the workforce doing unfulfilling work that they hate only to retire and then die, families ripped apart by crippling debt, depression, suicide, addictions, loneliness, loss of community, etc etc are we really that better off?

well no worse or better - all of those happend 200, 300 years ago! even more so since people starved to death and families where ripped apart by the workhouse

The industrial revolution deverstated rural communities and created great swathes of slums not 'communities'

We have restricted working house, flexible working, maternity pay, health and safety at work legislation, equal pay (okay in theory we do) - much better than the good old days (not to mention education, clean water, health car BUT that woudl begin to sound like a Python sketch!)

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 01/02/2011 11:08

I think the thing is that it just isn't the case that things were better in the good old days. Almost everything is better.

FabbyChic · 01/02/2011 11:09

In the old days when people were depressed they stuck them in mental hospitals and left them there for thirty years.

I really would not want to go backwards.

AbsDuCroissant · 01/02/2011 11:14

Well, there are still places where you could go and live the idyll you described above. What I saw in rural Rajasthan was pretty close - large families, relying on agriculture for sustenance etc. FAB! Only, very close to starvation, problems with water, no indoor sanitation (everyone washing/drinking from the communal pump), problems with disease, infant mortality, woman having no/very little social status etc.

But I agree with all the other posters - if you want a simpler, less materialisitc life, then that's what you should choose. No-one's holding a gun to your head saying that you need all the latest gadgets, that you should work long hours, spend less time with family.

MyNameIsInigoMontoya · 01/02/2011 11:15

Ask my mum. She lived just the sort of life you wrote about - minus a few "lovinglys" and plus a bit lot more worrying, hard work and stress...

Instead of her mother lovingly tending her brood from her rocking chair, my mum as eldest had to leave school at 14 to help with the younger ones and the farming, as there was too much for the adults to do alone (all the kids learned to drive tractors in early teens too as they were needed to work). Which nearly put paid to her dreams of an actual career.

Instead of worrying about bills, they worried about putting enough food on the table for all the kids, surviving the next pregnancy (my gran nearly died from childbirth at least once, and lost 2 children at birth or very soon after), illness,... And when they did have enough food, it was mostly bread or potatoes. Why do you think older generations are so good at saving every morsel of leftovers, down to the last quarter onion?

If you think you are "exhausted" in the evening (and then spend it watching TV), try looking after a huge brood of kids AND a farm all day, then sleeping with the whole family (incl new babies) squashed into 2 rooms - or actually not sleeping, as gran was regularly up for half the night spinning wool to be able to dress everyone, as she didn't have time for that during the day. (Time? What was that again?)

Oh and then there was my grandad, he was nearly killed in a farming accident when my mother was still a child (which would have left the family in dire straits), and it was the aftereffects of the accident that killed him later, still relatively young...

Loads of the young men roundabout were alcoholics (incl some of my uncles in later years), as conditions were so miserable and there was little else for them to do...

Somehow I don't think my mum wants to go back to those days - not to say she doesn't realise we still have problems, as she spends a lot of time on charity work and helping people who need it. But however much I moan about my life sometimes, I know we have it so good really!

BaggedandTagged · 01/02/2011 11:16

One thing I do find sad about modern western society is our obsession with privacy and general unfriendliness and distrust of strangers (which oddly contrasts with the need to broadcast our every move on FB, Twitter etc but still....).

It's sad when a well meaning, but maybe slightly odd comment by an old lady gets a 100 post analysis on MN and heaven forbid that she touch the baby- get thee gone old lady!

I've just started taking DS swimming and another dad in the class took some photos of his son at the first lesson and some of mine and then got my email address so he could email me the photos. If that was in the UK he'd have been strung up by now.

TheProvincialLady · 01/02/2011 11:17

Read an old local newspaper, OP - one from 100 years ago or more. You will read about more suicides, destititues, alcoholics, mentally ill people, murders, fights, domestic violence and theft than would ever appear in a modern newspaper. The past is only great because we don't have to live like that now. The truth is that it only really suited a handful of upper class men - it was appalling for everyone else.

FabbyChic · 01/02/2011 11:18

Bagged research shows that when you post something on the internet from behind a computer screen, you do so with anonymity so you can basically post what you like.

People who deal in a work environment via the net do so with more honesty than they would face to face with someone.

BaggedandTagged · 01/02/2011 11:23

FabbychicI can definitely believe that (I bet if we had a real life AIBU it would not kick off to the extent it does online), but if you're on FB you're not anonymous and people still broadcast their whole lives.

I suppose I'm just musing the apparent contradiction between us wanting more privacy on the one hand, but having more and more mediums with which to communicate the minutae of what we're doing. I suppose it really comes down to what Litchick said- we want to engage but solely on our own terms.

Udderly · 01/02/2011 11:30

Mmmm lots of people saying the same thing here - and you can't all be wrong I guess. I know I can make choices individually for me and my family and to a certain degree I am. It occurred to me before I went on Maternity Leave that I spend more time with a group of random people that I have very little in common with than I do with my DH - on paper, does that not seem weird? That I spend 8 hours a day in the company of people who are neither friends, nor family, to make money? All nice people mind.

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 01/02/2011 11:31

No it's not weird. It's called 'earning a living'. If you're lucky, the job that pays you a living wage is also something you really enjoy doing with people you quite like. If you're unlucky, you do it, take the cash and look forward to Friday nights.

What privileged bubble do you actually come from?