to be struggling with the Andy Gray situation...

[cestlavie]

I mean, I get it, but one thing I'm struggling with is how and when people get 'punished' for holding certain views.

So if privately you have, shall we say, negative thoughts about certain groups of society - Asian men, women in general, Jewish people etc. - how and when should you be punished for this?

Presumably holding these views per se isn't enough? Equally, discussing these views privately isn't enough either. Certainly, in a free, democratic society, people should be free to do so.

So two questions:

1. Are there certain sorts of people who just should not be allowed to hold these views? I mean I guess politicians probably shouldn't but what about others? If you're in the public eye is that enough to mean you musn't hold these views? If you're a singer, actress, sports star, D-list celeb, TV presenter? Are all of these people expected to hold "acceptable views"?

1. Or is it okay for them to hold whatever view they want provided it's not public? It's okay for a D-list celeb to be as racist as you like provided nobody knows. And what happens if privately held views only become public without that person being involved - a secretly taped conversation for example, or an off-mike comment? You're suddenly punishing them for something which isn't their fault.

At what point is the 'punishment' kicking in?

Outside the workplace you should be able to pronounce as many foolish and bigoted opinions as you like. So long as you are not inciting any harm towards anyone. If people get offended by your unpopular views that is tough, people do not have the right to go through life not being offended.

At work (as discussed on another thread) you should just keep your opinons on anything to yourself, saves a lot of hassle.

Surely its offensive regardless of the situation. If someone takes offense at it then it warrants some kind of sanction. If you do something offensive but no-one complains, its still offensive. If you keep the view private, however, then no-one is able to be offended.

1. Yes

1. Yes.

For instance, my best friend calls me a stupid bitch, I laugh. My boss calls me a stupid bitch, he's sacked. It's about appropriateness, respect, culture and societal position. 50 cent isn't blaizing a trail for women's rights, but David Cameron better be, the same as the doctor who treats us should be or the teacher who guides our children.

Some people get punished for airing their negative views, others don't. Guess what, it's not fair; life's not fair. I get arrested for nicking a lipstick, a diamond theif gets away scott free.

The thing is, everyone knows what's acceptable and what's not as far as the law is concerned, and should try to stick by it. I wish i had longer to type but i have to go. Argh.

Kind of agree with Bellingham, but just to add...its strikes fear in my heart the racist and bigoted views held by my SIL who is an HR Director of a very, very large international company. Really, is it likely that she is able to really just "switch off" these views in her day to day work?

I don't understand the fuss about it, and I don't think they should have to leave their jobs.

What they said was twattish, but if everyone who ever said anything twattish at work was sacked, the country would completely come to a standstill.

It was offensive and stupid but it was never meant to be broadcast but it was leaked, presumably by a colleague.

They have apologised. I don't believe they should have lost their jobs over it. We've all said things from time to time that we are not proud of.

It is more than "twattish" though, it is sexist. The law covers sexual discrimination and sexual harassment but it doesn't cover stupid behaviour.

Why shouldn't they have to leave their jobs? -if someone told me at work I wasn't able to fulfil my role because of my gender, the law would be on my side, thankfully.

They have apologised because they were caught, big difference. Mic on or off, they were at work and should have been in 'professional' mode. I might say something twattish at work but I'm unlikely to be overheard by however millions of people.

*however many millions of people.

ethelina - dangerous road you go down with that argument.

I could say that I was offended by your post - what then? What 'sanction' should I receive?

In my experience the people that get offended by this sort of thing are not life's leaders.

JBellingham: I get that but I'm still not sure where the punishment kicks in, so to speak.

Is it because he holds these views, i.e. would it be okay to hold these views privately? In which case, it's just down to misfortune that he got found out and fired - like you whispering to your friend at the coffee machine and another colleague over-hearing.

Or do we actually care about people holding these views per se? In which case should be actively require that they hold acceptable views, make it part of their contract?

Gwendoline: so they're being punished for being unprofessional rather than holding these views?

I am not saying that racist or bigoted views are acceptable, I am saying just because you are offended does not mean somthing has to be done about it. The law does not have to take action just because your sensibilities are affected.

pascoe -so people who are victims of racism, sexism, disablist comments and the like are life's losers, eh? You can be offended by an unlawful act you know.

You can privately hold whatever extreme or distasteful view you want as long as you don't use it to the detriment or offense of other people. It's OK not to feel wholeheartedly comfortable with the gay lifestyle, for example, but it's not OK to ban a gay person from your B&B or call gay people names in the street as a result of your discomfort.

Secretly taped conversations of distasteful views mean they had to be airing those views to someone... They weren't private thoughts in their heads any more. Andy Gray and Gordon Brown found to their cost that the punishment due is a complicated mix of offence, hypocrisy, public opinion and advertiser pressure!

Its all about getting caught from the bosses viewpoint. And the resultant publicity.

They should have cut Andy Gray down to 500 quid a week and let him keep the job.

                         cheers "Gabby"

You can hold as many disgusting private views as you like privately. You should not bring them in to the workplace.
However certain high profile people must also accept if they are the face/representative of either a brand (celebrities) or a group of people (politicians etc) then things which they do in private that may damage their reputation publicly may affect their work or contracts.
So if footballer/Rugby player X is caught out saying horribly racist or sexist things in private and it is made public then it should not affect their contract to play for their team but it may well affect sponsorship or media contracts as they have tainted their brand.

.. and they were 'caught' because people who had been on the receiving end of their twattish/ignorant/misogynistic/illegal behaviour IN THE WORKPLACE for many years, finally had enough & outed them.

But he was actually only reprimanded for the sexist comments before the match - he was only sacked when other incidents came to light, which were presumably deemed to be sexual harrassment.

In emplyment you must behave reasonably and fairly to all. To not do so ia against the law.

Once I leave work I can stand on the corner proclaiming how I hate Japanese females who use wheelchairs. So long as I don't start saying that we should hurt, injure or throw things at them, anybody who dislikes my view can tell me so, but it is not illegal just because they object.