Posh and Posher BBC2 TV tonight (wed)

[GabbyLoggon]

Andrew Neil, a free thinking Tory broadcaster. is fronting this prgramme.

He will only be telling us what we already know. But its worth a look if the subject grabs you.

I have been called "posh" on some Northern phone-ins; but its a relative term. I dont talk Penelope Keith cheers "Gabby"

inverted snobbery is just as daft as the other sort

but just heard Andrew Neil on Richard Bacon's radio show and this sounds quite interesting

Will plan to watch it but may have drowned in my own drool after an hour of Michel Roux. He is my new Theo Paphitis.

The anthropologists say it is "status"
which makes human beings tick..

But we English do have our own brand of
class snobbery...which is even said to stretch to using a knife and fork, or even pronoucing the word CLASS

Are you mumsnetters a short a class or a long a claaaaas? (not that long I trust)

Two of my large family were posh speilers.
From a working class background. It amused the rest of us. It is said that if you get people angry they return to their early accent c

I watched the programme last night, the overwhelming point to come out of it for me was that our children are not being given the same opportunities afforded to us (so long as you're over a certain age) when we were young. That is free, grammar school education. Before I go on, I failed my 12 plus in the 70's and happily survived the secondary modern experience. But I would strongly defend my children's right to a grammar school education. Limiting the overwhelming majority of our children who would thrive on this sort of education (and a grammar school education isn't appropriate for everyone) is divisive, why hold back working class or middle class children who are bright and would thrive and go onto our elite universities by not providing grammar schools and using as an excuse the secondary modern where girls are taught sewing and boys are taught how to lay a brick (neither of which I experienced). Surely by now most of us can see that the comprehensive 'experiment' hasn't worked and that social mobility as a result has taken a nose dive. If we reinstate grammar schools and look at supporting the children who would go to our secondary schools with vocational courses and a targetted better curriculum instead of promoting university places for all at any cost surely we would end up with two very important things that most parents crave for their children. One social mobility and two a happy and fulfilled adult life.

I also watched this - didn't agree with all of it and was disappointed that Andy Burnham was only mentioned in relation to going to Cambridge rather than Oxford when he is very much a northern, working class lad who had some brilliant teachers (but he is too young for grammar school I think).

I'm not sure that dividing people up at 11 or 12 is the answer, but as they are divided by higher level & foundation level later on, this could happen earlier, but within the same school. Teachers need to expect more from the brighter kids - I think the level of expectation between state and private is one of the key differences. Many (most?) of us will always do as little as we can get away with.

Interesting point about Andy Burnham. He has alll the credentials you'd expect a Labour leader to have yet didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of actually being elected leader.

What MishaW said.

I've just checked up on Andy Burnham and he went to a Roman Catholic High School. These are generally reputed to be better than state comprehensives - maybe that helped him to get to Cambridge?

I thought it was interesting that Andrew Neil said that his success was down to his grammar school education which gave him social mobility but neither he nor anyone else in the programme could countenance the return of grammar schools because they inevitably consign a huge number of children (65% or more) to a much worse education (I paraphrase). I kind of agree but what is to be done? I'm not keen on being ruled over by a social elite forevermore either .

I was pleased to see this issue being highlighted, but was very bored with Neil's grammar school hobby horse. It seemed to me he was harking back to an era of scoail mobility WRT MPs that probably never existed. He never actually (IIRC) produced any evidence that the background of MPs was more mixed in the grammar school era han it is now. Did he for instance compare the number of Eton/public school old boys in the cabinet in say 1950, 1980 and now? Or any previous era with now?

I suspect that there have always been huge numbers of public schoolboys in parliament and this number may well be decreasing over time as a general trend.

It is bloody shocking that this country is still being run by public schoolboys, and that (for instance) there are more Old Etonians in the cabinet than women. But I'm not convinced that grammar schools are the panacea he seems to think they are.

scoail mobility? SOCIAL mobility ffs.

Everyone needs to watch When Boris Met Dave btw, that really was an eye-opener about the backgrounds/relationships between the people now running the country.

Follows Boris & Dave's career at school & uni.

Was :o /:( at the throwaway comment on last night's prog "...went to Eton, where he met Boris Johnson and much of his cabinet"

The way forward is a totally classless society where one moves forward on merit and hard work.

We can all start working towards a classless society by refusing to be pigeonholed for a start. The government continually asks us questions which aims to discriminate. Does it matter if we are male or female or what our colour or ethnic origins are? Why do they need to know if the individual is black, asian, white British or white Irish? Why do they need to know if we are male or female? They only need information like this if they intend to use it to discriminate or give different treatment for different groups of people. We should refuse to answer discriminatory questions.

Class descriptions to are as demeaning as racial descriptions and both need to stop.

We should not be complicit with the government by giving them information with which they can treat us unequally or which could be used in a discriminatory way.

Class differentiation is just another form of
bigotry on a par with racism, sexism etc.

Well, Neil did say that the people who
were on a grammar kick tended not to mention Sec Mod schools which educated 80 per cent of the population.

it is obvious if you take the brightest kids and give them the best teachers they
will end up as managers of one kind or another.

I thought the best joker was the toff MP
who mentioned vox populi. Did not realise how funny he was. cheers "Gabby"

Um, yes, he did point out that from 1964 - Harold Wilson - up to 1997 - Tony Blair - all prime ministers went to grammar schools - that was the point of the programne. He even said that being grammar school educated rather than private helped John Major get elected party leader. Although the Milibands and Yvette Cooper all went to comps. I guess having the 'right' parents is probably just as important.

I think people need to decide what they are angry about and focus on that.

Are you angry that some posh blokes have done well for themselves? (If a leftie, i suspect the answer to be yes)

Are you angry that state education has patently failed to deliver for those whose parents can't afford to go private?

Some people seem to think that if others do well, they themselves have done worse in relative terms. One will never be happy if one takes such a 'zero-sum' view of life.

We need to bring back grammar schools, pronto.

Anyone who has been on a skiing holiday and taken lessons knows there is no enjoyment to be had unless one streams by ability correctly!!

Based on the previously mentioned statistics, what's wrong with 35% of our children being taught in grammar schools and aiming for places at top unis with careers in the professions. What's unacceptable is that the remaining 65% would be condemned "to a much worse education". I don't understand why that would happen. I have children in both systems, grammar and secondary. I don't feel the child at secondary has been condemned to a worse education. The style of grammar school teaching would not have suited him and I know he would not have been happy and yet his brothers thrived. I can't accept holding back capable children because we seem incapable of devising a system of education that gives the other 65% the tools they need (not just the literacy and numeracy basics) to enter the adult world of work.

In simplistic terms there are said to be 480 thousand jobs and 2 and a half million unemployed

Fill me in on the argument that are system needs a level of unemploymnt.

it gets churned over from time to time. Dont wait for goverments to tell you the truth about motivation. We probably would not like it if they did.

We need scepticism not cynicism; or it all
turns into a disney film

If you are still a Tory try and read P.J
O,rourke. He seems more candid than the average commentator. cheers "Gabby"

I forgot to tell you that "P.J" swings to the Right. (his tips are well thought out)And he is funny with it.

MishaW: That's because at the moment most areas don't work on an either/or basis - some people can go to grammar schools (in some areas) but, generally, there are still good comps for those who don't want to or don't pass the exams. If many more grammar schools were reintroduced - or academically selective schools or whatever they would be called - then it would have a disastrous knock-on effect on the non-selective schools. I do feel that non-selective schools should all offer a "grammar stream" for want of a better word where academic children can be given a more appropriate education but those children should be monitored so that they can be restreamed and other children brought in if they struggle.

We still have a few grammars in my area.

I should imagine they are in great demand.

One headmaster had a flat in his school
so he could get his kids in. (so the rumour said)

Michael Gove seems a nicle little bloke;
but his policies on education are too complex for some commentators.

Perhaps he is making it up as he goes along. "Gabby"

Hang on a SECOND....Has your local council ever thought of changing their name?

Hows the education going?

To the person who thinks we should abolish class distinctions. I agree, but it won't happen. Just look at the snobbery (including inverted) on here.