To think that taxing high earners even more would actually be a bit unfair?

[bubbleymummy]

I hear this suggested a lot on mumsnet and I really disagree with it. High earners are paying a huge contribution in tax already - thousands and sometimes 10s of thousands more than a lot of people who are clamouring for them to be taxed even more! Why should they be punished for having a highly paid job? How would you like handing nearly half your income over to the government? I think we should be thankful that we do have high earners who are already making a significant contribution. We would be a lot worse off if we drove them away with higher taxes!

It depends what you consider 'fair'. I support tax avoidance whole heartedly because I don't agree with the notion of the public purse and it definitely should not take so much; if you work 5 hours and are taxed at 20% that is one hour of forced labour. I also hate banker bashing, but then I am a rampant libertarian.

I must admit, 200 a week on groceries feels very affluent to me too, and we are in the top tax bracket. We couldn't afford to run two cars, let alone buy them. However, I'm currently doing all the work on my house that's needed and if we had more money in hand that would be paid to someone else to do it. If we paid less tax, the money would definitely be spent on local goods, services, shops, tradesmen.

Anyway, that's by the bypass.

"This doesnt neccessarily mean handouts, I am talking about services. My husband is a volunteer youth worker and I have heard first hand the useful services they are cutting to the learning disabled, children/teens in care etc. I think its terrible and want the help for these individuals. I havent got much but the disposble income I have got I would happily sacrifice more of my money if I knew we could keep these types of services running."

I agree wholeheartedly about this. My caveat would be, there is no way to guarantee it and I would have no confidence at all that it would happen. I wanted education improvements and voted for them and lo, billions were spent on education. To no good effect, to see social mobility halted.

As well as the services you note, I would cut benefits for some out of work and increase benefits for people entering work and on the lowest wages. There ARE people who work despite not being that much better off than if they didn't and quite frankly I think that should be rewarded.

Happiestblonde - you support tax avoidance? Why???

Companies avoid paying millions of pounds of tax each year with 'clever' accounting and strategic liquidation. Some (and I stress some am not making sweeping generalisations) directors deliberately show very little profits in order to pay next to no tax at the same time claim high levels of ctc etc so they are not putting in but are taking a lot out. Not fair imho.

I do object to the potential tax hikes for employed persons when this sort of practice is still legal.

Oh and am not banker bashing - I am a banker!

Tax avoidance is just the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage.
Surely any sensible person would want to minimize their tax paid in a legal manner!

The interesting question is at what tax level most people would decide to switch from paying tax in the normal manner to utilizing tax avoidance vehicles if they were available.

Taxing people beyond this percentage is probably self defeating for a government and just starts off an arms race between the HMRC and tax accountants.

There is nothing wrong with tax avoidance. The way to reduce it and make it unnecessery is to simplify the tax system.

Ideally I's like to see all tax accountants made redundant as there will be nothing for them to do.

(Apart from my mate Zubin)

OP: Couldn't agree more. It doesn't affect me as I earn very little, but I would be mightily fed up if I were a high earner and had to give yet more of it away.

Tax avoidance is the right of everyone. For example anyone on here who earns could choose not to claim their single person allowance and pay 20% tax on their first £7k - you could if you don't like avoidance pay an extra £1400 instead.

You might also use both husband's and wife's annual allowance. You might not pay capital gains tax when you sell your home. If you think taxes are too low then by all means pay 40% CGT on the profit when you sell your house. You won't be stopped . Anyone can over pay tax if they think the Governments are so good at spending it. You all tax avoid unless you earn no money at all.

What is true is that the lower the top rate of tax and less trouble people go to to minimise their tax bills within the law.

TBH we are stretched but what I really don't understand is how people not earning that much cope with things like Christmas. It has completely floored us. People in our tax bracket really do go to the ATM and get turned away. Me, today. I don't buy clothes, make up, don't get fancy coffees, buy magazines, drink wine or beer, buy fancy brands, eat ready meals, go to the cinema, theatre, pub, eat out.. there's almost nothing to give up. But there's always something, two pairs of school shoes and a new school skirt to be bought next weekend, mil's birthday next weekend, phone repair, just stuff.

I do say on here about finding things hard, and they are, but how much harder must it be on 30k?

I don't do much of those things (but from choice not because of income)

We bought a lot of school uniform second hand in leaner times you could try that.

Christmas - we don't buy much. The children don't expect it. I'm not into things. Although I'm not saying I'm poor.

Where people can they could try getting second and third jobs etc. but I know that is not always possbile.

But second/third jobs -- if people are very low down the wage ladder then holding down three or four jobs between two people and handlng childcare - I think many would choose benefits over that.

I'm on call.. I never say no. Childcare is a nightmare. Well it doesnt happen except for ovenights. Mine are good at putting together their own beans on toast.

Christmas - I bought too much. I bought too much for other people too. But it didn't feel like too much, it felt normal. But we can't keep up with people anymore.

Anyway the point of all this whinging is to say -

if we had any more money ie paid less tax, it would go back into our local economy, it would not go to Monaco, it would pay wages and buy goods. Not a bad thing. I'm sure the same is true for many of the stretched middle or whatever we are called nowadays.

Just thoguht of something: organic meat. I buy that. Butthat's to keepthe local boy in business and stay away from Tesco.

Good God! I care for DS completely alone, his father isn't even in the Uk and contributes nothing. I work 30 hours a week, and this fits in well with childcare. My job cannot offer me more hours, and I live in an area with high unemployment and low average wages.

They are building a tesco store in town, and there have been 520 applicants for 162 measily minimum wage jobs. The other jobs on offer in the local rag are; 1 P/T teaching assistant, hotel staff (minimum wage and antisocial hours), House keeper (ditto), care assistants, bar staff, cleaners, and a sales/admin assistant. And this is the busy run up to the tourist season, therefore by april most of these jobs offers will dry up. So, nothing better than my current job worth applying for.

I leave ds in the morning at 7.45, the earliest any childcare can take him BTW, and I pick him up at 5pm. The latest I could pick him up is 6pm, there is no (ofsted) childcare here later than this, and none at the weekend.

So even if I was able to get more child care to cover a second job, and even if I had the bloody energy to be a full time mum and work hellish hours, just when the hell would my DS get to see his only parent? I might as well leave him in care and wash my hands of him.

But of course, there goes my sense of entitlement! How selfish of me to want my son to have food, clothing, a home and a relationship with his mum.

Appletrees "what I really don't understand is how people not earning that much cope with things like Christmas."

The answer is easy: debt. In the noughties debt became the new form of wealth.

UK household debt grew by over 100% between 2000 and 2008. It's now over £1.5trillion. The average household owes about 170% of average income.

People must really be hoping those interest rates don't go up.

Toastie, we didn't have children till we could afford it and we still struggle.

an example of the respect for the public purse, or disrespect - the pfi story in the telegraph

200pw on food? After housing cost have I less than that to spend on everything else.

more rich people spending money privately doesn't make the poor better off. some people are far from lazy but will never earn more than 20k in their lives.

yes it does

I agree with the rest of your earlier post and indeed about greater wage equality, but I disagree very much that spending money does not make people rich.

Our society is a consumer society: the whole world is a consumer society. You can't change that. Spend money and it goes into someone's pocke : they spend if and it goes into someone else's. Unlsss you want production control, price control, supply and demand control, that is the way it is.

i meant central control

funny, I do agree with you mainly

I mean, I prefer to use a small business, a local smaller builder, shops round the corner

I do agree that is a better way of spreading out money