To build an extension that will p*ss the neighbours off?

[Porksword]

Apologies, this is a dull dilema.

We've had a few meetings with the architect to plan a single storey extension to our lounge. Because of the changes to planning regs, what we want falls within 'permitted' limits and so we don't need planning permission.

Because we are up close to the boundary with our neighbour, I know that they are not going to be impressed as we will reduce light to their kitchen.

When I explained this to the architect, his (rather more long winded)response was tough sh*t.

Would I be an asshole to go ahead anyway?

You can "consult" them in a nice way without making it seem like they get a veto over your plans. I would just do it along the lines of, "here's what we're thinking of, hope you approve, obv we will do all we can to minimise the impact on you, do let us know if you've got any concerns"

What direction does their kitchen face? If the extension would block the southern face of their garden then I should think it would make quite an impact, and shadow their patio too.

But if your house is to the north of theirs it might not affect the light and could make a nice south-facing sun trap for a climbing plant - and if it's a blank wall it can be ultimately more private than having your living room overlook their patio.

Who would you rather piss off: your architect who you don't have to see if you don't want to or your neighbours who you see all the time?

Permitted development rules will dictate that you have to be 2 meters from the boundary and no more than 4 meters high.You can however build on up to 50% of the size of the garden

I would'nt get them involved,maybe just decide what you would like whilst being considerate to there needs.Could it be smaller? Could the roof be stepped down?

"whats most important - the extension or your frienship?"

It's not even a question of friendship, it's a question of wanting to feel comfortable in your own street and not feeling the need to avoid sitting in the garden in case the neighbours you upset are sitting there too.

Id go round and take the plans with you, and tell them you are planning to build it but did not want to go ahead if it was going to cause any unecessary bad feeling.

I did this at my previous house(we really needed the space). The neighbours weren't happy but they got used to it - we were very good friends and it did put a strain on our friendship while it was being done. We all lost the plot a couple of times because it dragged out because the builder was crap!

IMO if it is permitted then it is not unreasonable development. Even if it needs planning permission then that's ok too. That's why we have rules and regualtions, architects and planning departments.

DO speak to your neighbours as they may want to do the same.

If you go ahead get a very reliable builder that has been recommend to you so that the process is done quickly - they do exist.

We extended considerably at our current property without any fuss - great builder and kept the neighbours informed all along.

I did as fabbychic suggested the second time around - took the plans around to show the neighbours.

I also know people who have been on the receiving end of this - they were all concerned beforehand but admitted that the final result was ok.

I don't like your architect's attitude very much OP. As you said, he's not going to have to live next door to your neighbours after he's finished pissing them off.

As someone who has lived in a house where wanky architectural designs have resulted in a horribly dark kitchen, I would say YADBU and if you don't wish to start a massive war over this, you will consult them in a genuine way and not just pay lip service IYGWIM.

If I were you, I'd go have a nice chat with the neighbours and say that you would like to put in an extension, but you want to reduce any disruption to them. Ask what would be in the realm of acceptable to them, but be prepared to hear that they don't want any reduction to their light, people are very precious about that, for good reason.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean you should do it without consideration to others.

It sounds like you may have to get Party Wall Agreement, as others have said. Check this (although I would have expected the architect to mention this). If you do need Party Wall agreement, AFAIK, they couldn't stop the work, but they can ask you to appoint another surveyor (at your cost) to ensure the works are done to minimise the impact on them. I'm not an expert, but I don't think this has anything to do with light, it's more to do with ensuring your new foundations don't affect their foundations.

Round here, many people extend their kitchens over to the boundary along the side return of the house. Doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'd run it by them first.

Our neighbour build a permitted extension and believe me, we were not happy and neither were neighbours on the other side. The extension neighbour needed planning permission, but our objections were overruled.

Relations have now thawed from outright frostiness to cordial dislike. The other neighbours are still on non-speakers with the extension-building tossers.

At the very least go and show your plans to the neighbours and tell them what you plan to do. If they are very anti- think very carefully. You may be "right" in law, but you may pay a high price for being so.

Party Wall agreement

If you visit the neighbours you have to think how you want to play it.

If you start saying 'what is acceptable to you?, we'll only go ahead if you think it's ok, etc', what happens if they say no to everything?

I would get plans drawn that are acceptable to you and that you believe are acceptable to your neighbours. Then show them the plans and say 'this is what we are doing, we believe we have been sympathetic by doing x, y and z' end of. Do not ask for their consultation and do not start offering them decking/patio like previously suggested. Doing that is the thin end of the wedge.

quenelle - it is not the neighbours who will be paying the architects fee, that is why they will draw/design whatever the CLIENT asks for, regardless of neighbours views. Harsh, but true.

Don't take your architects' word that the extension will be permitted development. You definitely need to check with the planning department to make sure that there isn't an Article 4 direction or a condition on the original planning permission that means you cannot extend without planning permission. It was quite common at one time to remove permitted development rights. You also need to check that there isn't a restrictive covenant - quite a few housebuilders put them on as a nice money spinner.

Get the planning department's views in writing and keep them with your deeds or any other paperwork that you may need when you come to sell. You may need to demonstrate that your extension is legal for any new purchaser.

Don't worry too much about a party wall agreement. If the extension would meet normal pd criteria then it won't be affecting a party wall. Check though.

After doing all that then it is worth going to show your neighbours what you are going to be building. They may not be bothered in which case there's no problem but if they are concerned there may be an easy amendment that can be made to the plans.

Party wall does mater because if you dig anywhere near their foundations and anything cracks in their house you will be liable.

We have just had to pay alot of money to a party wall surveyour who was appointed by our neighbours (their right under law) but rather this than be in the situation that we were in previously when our neighbours did waht they wanted and we nearly went to court over it.

Also DH is a surveyour himself so I know for certain it is required (if you want to sell your house you will need a copy.)

I can't remember what the boundry measuremnets are though to mean you need it.

Being married to a surveyor you might think I know how to spell it!

Also have just asked him about right to light. It is something that can be claimed by your neighbours and the planners tend to agree.

You need to look up 'right to light' on the internet. Unfortunately it's even possible to get planning permission for an extension and still fall foul of the 'right to light' law. If you aren't careful, apparently you might build your extension and then get a letter from your neighbour's solicitor. In the worst case scenario you can apparently be forced to knock the extension down! Essentially I think you need to make sure your architect has done the relevant thinking about how to minimise their loss of light. There's something called the 45 degree rule about where the end of the extension falls relative to their windows.

Disclaimer: I have no legal knowledge, but am planning an extension to the house we have just bought. It falls (just) within permitted development rights, but according to our architect we can't actually do what we originally wanted to do because of the right to light issues.

I'm a planner. The right to light is a common law issue. If it affected amenity then it would be relevant to planning

Party wall agreements are not planning issues either that's why I said to check. However party walls shouldn't be affected by permitted development as it gives a 2m buffer from neighbouring properties.

x posted with libelulle

Sounds like you have a very thorough architect btw :)

Jins am I about right in my interpretation of right to light? Could planners theoretically agree an extension but a court decide that the neighbour's right to light had been breached all the same? And is the 45 degree rule absolute, or could you argue on an individual case basis that the neighbour still had plenty of light? (eg if the room affected had plenty of other windows)

We do:) He also happens to be my father-in-law, which is mighty handy:)

If it is close to the boundry would they not need access to the neighbours land for ladders etc and permission to go on the land?

That's my understanding as well. Somewhere in the small print of a planning permission will be a disclaimer saying effectively that other permissions may be required.

The most common mistake is that people think that planning permission and building regs are the same thing. Most departments talk to each other now so if you submit an application that needs building regs you'd get a letter and vice versa.

As far as right to light and other similar situations go then it would be for the courts to decide whether there was a case. I think that if you breach the 45 degree rule then you would need other evidence to demonstrate that light levels have not been affected. However I'm not a solicitor and this isn't my field

Thanks Jins!

How would you feel if they blocked the light in your kitchen. Just because you're legally entitled to do something doesn't mean it's necessarily okay and fair to do it.