To think if most people waited until they were earning enough to not be entitled for any government benefits before they had children there'd be hardly any kids in the UK?

[LaWeaselMys]

MIL had an argument with DP last night as she does not want us to have any more children until we are not eligible for any government help and are 'paying for them ourselves' To not AIBU by stealth - After a choppy period we are earning and from next tax year will be entitled to very little bar CB and a small amount of TC.

Tax credits is a bit more complicated to work out, but to not be eligible for Child Benefit you (or your partner if there's two of you) would need to be earning more than £44k pa. That's twice the national average wage!

AIBU to think that by the time most women and/or their partner earn more than 44k - if it ever happens, they would be infertile?

tyler, I don't get the distinction. I take CB and feel a bit guilty because I don't really 'need' it.

But I am fed up that a lot of my clients can have three, four, five children and the state picks up the tab. They have never worked and probably never will.

Being pissed off about this does not make me a facist.

I dont believe I mentioned facists.

I'm done. I believe that Curlymama is simply being difficult to provoke and argument that I cba to have! I shall leave her to live in her Utopia of high incomes, low taxation, perfect public services and one child per family!

Spero

Can you really not see the distinction between a couple who has never worked and rely solely on benefits for their entire life and a couple who have worked full time for 10 years who if they choose to have children rely on a little help for the government whilst their children are below school age?

We waited until we could afford it to TTC (above any of the TC/CB thresholds). Then it took 4 years for me to get pg (and I'm not through the pg yet). I wish we'd tried when we were under 30. My advice to anyone telling anyone else to wait is FUCK OFF, you don't know what harm you could be doing.

Tyler -yes I get that distinction, my critical faculties were blinded by rage at being called a facist for what I think are completely reasonable views.

What Tyler said. I got pregnant accidentally with my son when I was in my final year at university. I then went to work in a low paid, full time office job when he was 12 weeks old (I believe my wage was 13000 per annum). When he was three, I went back to university for a year to train for my current profession.

My son is now ten, because we have waited this long to have another til we can afford it without help from tax credits - I am in theory entitled now, but they assessed us at being eligible for 2.44 a week last time, so don't bother now! and we have been ttc the second for a few months - nothing happening, and I really hope I am not now infertile - I am only 32, but things can change with body over a decade obviously.

I couldn't have raised my son when he was little without the tax credits, and I don't feel bad about receiving them because if I hadn't, I would have to have been on Income Support and been condemned as a single parent on benefits (my partner is younger than me and was still at uni), and because since I retrained I pay a lot back into the economy - much more than I ever received if I live long enough and am able to continue working til retirement. And breathe.

Cor, that was badly written from me! Hope some element of what I was trying to say got through...

Laquitar - why not engage with the argument, rather than insulting the poster?

Firstly the OP said that "next tax year will be entitled to very little bar CB and a small amount of TC." so I assume they are entitled to more than this now and that should she conceive another child this reduction would be unlikely.

I have to say that I believe CB etc should only be payable for the first child and if you choose to have anymore you should be able to afford them.

I'm 24 and pregnant, I will receive nothing from anyone (except, I admit SMP for 8 wks)and will have to return to work after 3 months so that I can afford to bring up my child. I believe that as this was our decision, it's our responsibility and I have no desire to be a burden on anyone else.

I think that as long as your MIL isnt referring solely to CB then she is NBU.

I would not want to force any woman to have an abortion and I would hate to think that any man or woman would not be able to have children.

You can think that and yet still think that it is prudent to have the number of children you can afford. We planned our family so that we could afford them without help from the state. I think that is fair enough as we knew that we had the ability to earn a good wage.

On the other hand though women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I always wanted a large family but we had to space our two out by five years so that we could afford childcare. That meant that I am now the wrong side of 35 and TTC my third.

Coco - to clarify yes we will have a reduction next year regardless of having another child as this year our income was only around 9k, next year will be much more than that.

In my opinion if your income is £9k then your MIL is not being unreasonable at all.

I don't mean to sounds harsh but that's not even 1 person in a full time job...surely one of you could have worked full time at least?

I am still reeling that OP thinks £40,000 is what is needed to be earned to raise a family. Makes me wonder how much families are entitled to in benefits??

I don't think it is that shocking of a figure. Our family income has almost always been higher than that and we have only managed to have one child every five years because we wanted to be independent.

Our income LAST YEAR was 9k. This is because DP was a student for most of it and due to a long story I was not able to work.

It is much more than that next year, when we are thinking about having more children.

Also I never said that 40k is what is needed? I think average wage is fine. I said that this is what my MIL thought.

jenandberry - we're the same, since DS was born our incomes have been significantly higher than that and I in no way think of us as well off. In fact if you were to look at our friends we're probably nearer the bottom than the top earners.

I am certainly not one to dictate who can and cannot have children but for us the choice was clear -we wouldn't take on any responsibility or commitment unless we could afford to pay for it and didn't feel a child was any different.

Of course peoples circumstances change -people lose their jobs or families split up or health deteriorates and absolutely there should be assistance to help families out BUT I cannot agree with people who have families with multiple childre and make those decisions knowing they cannot afford it.

I do think there will always be people who cannot afford children without state help. Unless we want to start paying childminders, cleaners and other low paid occupations more I think we have to say that the state will help some people to have children.

Having said that I would not have felt comfortable asking the state to fund my university education which enabled me to earn a higher wage than average and then expecting the state to pay for my children because I did not want to wait and save,

It will be funding us to the grand total of £17 a week. If we chose to claim it. Which I don't know that we would for how often they have messed up our claims and caused problems.

It is not PAYING for an extra child should we choose to have one.

The state has also not paid for DPs education, he has a loan, which he will start paying back very shortly.

I think if you work and you pay in, you should not feel guilty about receiving TC. The cost of living is very, very high in the UK, especially housing and utilities, and until hard-working couples in low-paid professions (as listed by Riven, the list could be much longer) get paid a proper living wage, there's nothing wrong with them getting top-ups to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. Successive governments have created this situation by allowing employers to get away with paying wages you can't live on, so let those governments take the consequences.

Not having a go at single mums here, either - it's the paying in bit that matters to me.

I did not attack anyone LaWeasel I was talking about my own circumstances. I was fortunate to benefit from a full grant and a student loan. I took money from the state because I had no other choice and because I knew I would be able to put back into the system at a later date.

Pointy my point was that the government does pay me a living wage so therefore I am able to have children without much direct financial help from the state. Like most of us I used the NHS and the state education system.

Looks like there's an even split on this. Suppose we took the "the state" out of it altogether and dealt directly with each other....

If you're claiming more tax credits than you pay tax, how would you feel if your neighbour had to pay you that money directly out of their wages? Would you be happy demanding this of them? Would you have extra kids because you knew they had to give you this money?

And if you're paying more tax than you claim, how would you feel if you had to pay it direct to your neighbour to top up their earnings? Would you be pleased to continue paying extra for each child they had?

I have no issue with being a HRT who claims nothing back. I use services that my taxes pay for, if I ever fall on hard time it is there for me.

Cake, between us DH and I are currently doing well financially - between both of us working F/T we are OK, lucky enough to have bought house before prices went insane. DH is American ex-military and working in the US tax system so we get no CB. I have never claimed TC, partly because of many colleagues being overpaid and having to pay back, partly because of the hassle of DH having to get an NI number even though he does not (and should not) pay NI (he does not use the NHS). We've had our hard times as a result of this - have always worked and paid for childcare.

However, as we are now I do not begrudge a share of my tax money going to people on low incomes. I don't have a lot of time for people who don't work having more children to get a bigger house, but TBH I don't believe they are more than a small minority.

Fact is, low paid work is still work which needs doing. Care workers, TAs, cleaners - they are never going to be paid what DH and I get between us, but I wouldn't dream of saying that they should not be allowed to have children - people with a work ethic should be encouraged to have children and to pass that work ethic on, and that doesn't just apply to those of us who are well paid.