to only want people on this thread who agree that school setting research topics for a 6 year old

[activate]

is lazy teaching

as a teacher you do not set homework for children that they cannot acheive without parents doing it for them - you set homework for them that they can acheive with parental support

it is two different things

and this time I am going to say something

proving my point there stoats. YOUR objective requires ME to do the bloody work on your list.

I'm not a primary school pupil, its not your job to tell me what to do with my kid. Its not your job to expect parents to do things that many of them will not be able to do, let alone if they are willing.

You are coming across as very smug and high-handed. I am so glad I don't have to send my child to school in the UK, rather in a country that actually understands how to teach young children.

Of course we sign internet agreements, but they are permission for the children to access the internet at school. Noting to say it is available at home.

I wouldn't mind homework that is "find out three things about". That would be perfectly manageable, but my experience of these sorts of research projects is very different.

My ds is dyslexic and when he had this sort of stuff there is no way it took 10 mins or enthused him at all. They took hours, the first few were me badgering him to do it and him kicking up a huge fuss because he absolutely did not want to do it, and then the next couple were doing it. The google type ones are the worst because whereas I know how I would look something up, that is for an adult's understanding, not a small child, and so most of the time you are looking for something appropriate. Finally you find something, and yes it might be quite interesting, but I could have done lots of other more interesting things with ds in that time. Then there comes the writing things down fight, which often ended up with me typing something in (more or less) ds's words. And that would be the easy part. Next week there would be some draw something (ds hates drawing) or make something (requiring visits to craft shops) and yet another fight. dh and I both worked full time at this point, so it's our weekends we were wasting on this stuff. Now for dd it would be another matter. She will do most of this stuff on her own very happily with just general supervision. In fact she did most of ds's art and craft stuff for him because by that point I'd given up the fight.

Then we changed school systems when we moved to New York. Suddenly we had two hours homework (per child) every night, all workbook type stuff (the children were about 7 and 8). Now that was only possible because one of us was at home, but actually it was far more productive. It was regular so easier to timetable and less fights, and it meant we knew what they were learning and where they were struggling we could help because it was very clear the skills they were learning and how they were supposed to do it (dh and I both have masters degrees, and dh was a secondary school teacher, but neither of us know very much about how small children learn).

Then we moved again and in the Canadian system where we live there is pretty much no homework except for things they haven't finished at school and the occasional group project (always two or more children, and very self directed, they come home with books, the craft stuff they need etc). Interestingly Canada (and our very laid back province) does better on the international league tables.

Our Home-School Agreement, which I have actually just accessed specifies only under parental agreement that we should

"Check homework has been completed."

"In addition the Govt. guidelines for Primary Schools states that homework should "supports the work they do in class." not pre-empt it.

Also for infants (ie KS1) "homework should consist largely of reading and sharing books with parents and carers. Homework need not, and should not, get in the way of other activities which they may do after school such as sport, music and clubs of all kinds."

It is our perogative to have effective teachers who plan well

This isn't anything to do with good or bad planning. Let me give you a scenario:

1. I show powerpoint to children about penguins based on my own research. Children then toddle off to make posters, discussing what they learnt and how to display information.

Well-planned lesson in your opinions - teacher has done work and children have learnt something about penguins.

1. I give children h/w for w/e to find me three facts about penguins by Wednesday. In the meantime, at the w/e, I go off and prepare smartboard with categories (i.e. food, habitat, etc) with pictures.

Children bring in their info on Wed and we collate all information and put into categories. We now have 30x facts CATEGORISED by the children (as there will be time for talking to partners about where information should go). They now toddle off and make posters, discussing what they have learnt and how to display information. In your opinion, this would be a badly planned lesson.

Which of these two learning experiences is best?
Personally, I feel the second one. I'm sorry if you don't

they are six. You have over-thought it entirely.

And have it by wednesday? when would you give this? You tell the to google, they might mot have net access (not everyone does) they might have working parents (or perhaps childminders are supposed to do homework). They might have parents who don't know the first thing about penguins.

Perhaps you should wait until they can do the things you ask them to for themselves, which is the entire point.

Iwould disagree, the first one is a far more productive use of time.

How much can a 6 yr old learn (or really care) about a sodding penguin?

The 2nd scenario is the biggest pile of time wasting bullshit I have ever seen.

I remember having a homework assignment that was to watch a video. We didn't have a video player I was mortified trying to explain to the teacher. I think research projects would be better from 8 onwards when they are more likely to be better at reading.

My main problem with dd's homework is it comes with no instructions whatsoever. She comes home with a few blank sheets that she has to answer the question. Problem is then ensues a conversation lasting about an hour which involves me saying 'now what is your homework today>' and getting 'I don't know' 'I can't remember' in reply. I would love to be pushing her in the right direction but I struggle to know what the question/assignment is. A brief one or 2 line question would suffice. Its optimistic expecting a 5 year old to remember/tell their parents. I feel awkward signing it as I don't really know if the homework set has been done or not.

Why can't they toddle off to the school library though? Or watch a film or something in school? Although I don't have a problem with three facts because that really is a 10 minute job. Not sure why it has to involve the weekend though.

My dh got into quite a fight with school about homework when ds got a sanction (at the age of 7 or 8 I guess) for not giving in all his homework (he had just forgotten, we found it in his bag). dh's point was that as it was totally down to us as parents if it wasn't done then we should have the sanction, not ds (and being very badly organised is part of his dyslexia and on his IEP was getting himself organised for school, so we thought that he should have had some leeway or at east prompts to heck his bag). Anyway we got set the homework policy again and noticed that homework is apparently set as part of preparation for working (having a job) I thought this ridiculous. An eight year old does not need to prepare for work life, and in any case I regard it as very bad time management to have to bring work home. Work life balance is very important, and school life balance too.

In scenario 1 if small children are really enthused they will come out of school saying "Mummy / Daddy I found out this about penguins today" at which point we can if we all want to look at more penguins (particularly the ones falling over on youtube)

In scenario 2 you are assuming you have 30 homogenous children with equal abilities to access information either with or without parental support and then you are segregating those who come in with the "penguins are black and white and can't fly" and rewarding those whose parents do it for them with lots of attention in class

oh yes I so know which version I prefer and have to say YET AGAIN that homework is for the children to do not the parent

good point activate, how embarassing for a child to come and not have something to say when teacher asks? Or another that learnt more than three facts, but can't remember them (oh wouldn't it be great if he only had to do these things once he could read and write?)

It's just struck me, maybe the govt insistence on early reading (which I understand is a whooooole other thread) is muddying the waters here.

I still maintain that a research homework should be totally unrelated to literacy. It's more about finding out by talking, learning how to choose which information to share with others, asking questions. Surely a toddler or a schoolchild at home, if they want to find out about something, they ask a parent. They say "mummy, why can't penguins fly?" and you the parent talk to them and find out more together.

Presumably you don't say "sorry you'll have to wait until you can read and then you can find out yourself".

What I mean is, this kind of homework is (or should be) similar to the kind of chats you'd have at home anyway. All it's doing is giving a starting point by suggesting a topic - what's wrong with that?

I find it amazing that six year olds would be asked to research stuff etc.. I would have thought that at that stage whats being taught is basic literacy and numeracy skills... Think its fine and useful for 9 yr olds and over but at six seems like a waste of time.. Also have slight issue with teachers who expect everyone to have access to same levels of media..

I got my fingers very badly burnt by setting homework of this kind about 12 years ago, in my pre-child days.

What I learned after an army (well, nine, but they were marching) of enraged mothers descended upon me post research project set for homework is...

1- Don't be vague, be very, very clear about what you want the kids to do, which will also force you to be realistic time\scale wise about what you are proposing. Then you should be able to give them an idea of how long you want them to spend on it (eg 15-30 mins). Cos if you don't do that some kids will insist on working half the night for fear of being in trouble for not doing their homework properly.

2 - Teach the kids how to research first. Show them what you expect from them and how to do it because a parental interpretation of "research" is not always age appropriate and kids can end up frazzled with very exotic presentations and seriously grumpy mothers who have nearly killed themselves to give you what they thought you wanted.

3 - Don't assume a home has the resources you think they do. You risk compounding issues for kids who are already on an unlevel playing field. And one very upset parent will end up spending money they can't afford on an overpriced internet cafe with a very dodgy clientele and vent their resultant displeasure all over you.

4 - Don't assume the parents have the time to help the kid you teach to the extent you think they will. They may have other behomeworked kids, or demanding babies, and things like exhausting jobs, dinners to cook, a desire for relatively stress free family time after a whole day spent doing others bidding and a need to get everybody to a variety of sports\hobbies etc.. As fascinating as you find the topic in hand and your subject in general (being a bit one track minded) parents have a far wider range of priorities and juggling them is hard enough without you plonking another one on them. If you do plonk, they, being already rather stressed\tired, can take it very badly. And want blood. Preferably yours.

5- Act repentant. Grovel much. But assume they have no interest in their child's education in slightly snotty terms, inside your head only, for sake of personal safety. Have baby. Send him to school. Meet Nemesis. Repent again, but properly this time.

Don't get me wrong, I love doing project work with my son and my students. It can offer great learning opportunities and it's fun, not to mention gaining and honing various skills. However I find there is less gain and more pain when it becomes something they do AFTER a full day of education, rather than during it. Especially when it comes to the little ones.

I think a good rule of thumb is, if a project looks like a hassle to do in class cos it

risks being time consuming in practice

is hard to fit in a busy timetable

might not stay within strict timings and you could run out of time

brings up the question of dealing with making sure the required resources are available (and working properly\not being used by somebody else) for all

involves sorting out enough adults to supervise and lend a hand where needed

......... then probably it is going to be a hassle with similar issues in the home environment for a good number of the kids\parents.

And if it there aren't hassle\time consuming\busy timetable issue etc. etc. to consider, then why not do the research in class where you can provide uniform support and resources for all the kids ?

Where is the harm in swopping research projects with tasks that can be done independently (with resources from the school bag) and setting the latter for homework and making the former the classroom activity.

After all it's not like parents who enjoy doing that sort of thing with their kids can't take note of their little ones interests and get involved in doing research or projects with them if they want to on top of similar activities at school.

I think you've kind of agreed with me Jung?

ll31
6 year olds have a natural curiosity. Shouldn't we tap that rather than only focus on literacy and numeracy skills? Even children who find literacy and numeracy difficult because they are not developmentally ready, enjoy learning about animals and castles and things.

Oh god i hate this homework too!
Luckily dds school (so far, fingers crossed. touchwwod) seem to not go down that avenue

I was until recently working in a library, not a huge town library but a small village one. It was really frustrating because you gets kids coming in with obscure topics and you just cant help.

Lets take stoats, penguin project for example, you get a yr 1 student come in who wants to find out three things about penguions. You show her childrens reference section, there isnt a book about penguins, maybe another child has got it already, so you find a generic animal book with a page on penguins but she cant read it because its too hard, you search the library catologue....all the useful books easy to read at 6 about penguins are on loan to the county schools library service.....this means thay are in the schools

I cant believe any decent primary teacher thinks that 6 year olds should be googling. Its bad enough at university now trying to explain how useless the internet is for research without it being ingrained as the research method since the beginning of schooling

"Even children who find literacy and numeracy difficult because they are not developmentally ready, enjoy learning about animals and castles and things."

Indeedy. DD (3.6) is just getting to that stage - aside from the interminable whyyyyyyyyy it's really lovely. Will be starting to find websites, non-fiction library books and documentaries to encourage it.

ICT curriculum KS1

Knowledge, skills and understanding
Finding things out

1. Pupils should be taught how to:

a.gather information from a variety of sources [for example, people, books, databases, CD-ROMs, videos and TV]

I guess I'd worry that by not encouraging (yes I know parents can do it at home, but not everyone would think to) these sort of 'finding out' activities UNTIL every child has the literacy skill to do it unsupported, children would lose the lovely natural curiosity. If they are used to just filling in blanks on worksheets from the start... Well if that sort of homework is overdone it's soul destroying.

stoats - please read sarahitaly's post in full, print it out and stick it on the front of your, I'm sure lovely, teacher planner as a handy reference guide for when this smug patronising air comes over you again

I ask again - do you have school aged children? if so how many and what ages?

""Even children who find literacy and numeracy difficult because they are not developmentally ready, enjoy learning about animals and castles and things.""

yes they do. However having their ma reading and writing about it to a teachers schedule is not necessarily going to help them to enjoy learning.

"Which of these two learning experiences is best?
Personally, I feel the second one. I'm sorry if you don't"

-----

There is always the third choice...

Talk to whoever takes them for ITC (unless of course you do that too) and ask them to integrate the penguin fact finding mission into the lesson. If it doesn't work with the primary objective they have planned then maybe they can do it as a warmer\cooler activity. (Obviously this goes both ways in terms of you occasionaly collaborating on their projects, or helping find\collate\create resources in return).

Then next lesson you present your pre prepared smartboard with categories (i.e. food, habitat, etc) with pictures.

Children bring in their info that they found during the ITC lesson and together you collate all information and put into categories.

You now have 30x facts CATEGORISED by the children (as there will be time for talking to partners about where information should go).

They now toddle off and make posters, discussing what they have learnt and how to display information.

IMO that is an even better planned lesson because it avoids any children being at a disadvantage, because both support and resources are uniformly available in a school setting. Then they can go home and play. At being a penguin possibly.

Some will have had their interest sparked, gone penguin mad and parents can take an interest in helping and taking part in that.

Which they are far more likely to do, cos it is genuine interest of their child's, making the process of discovering all about penguins a relaxing, fun, family time activity (with no coaxing or nagging), and something that parents can more easily juggle with other family members needs etc. ...cos there is no deadline.