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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that your religion can't be that important to you

335 replies

theevildead2 · 03/01/2011 18:38

if you can just "switch to catholicism" when it suits you? Hmm

There is a bit on the news at the moment about women maybe being allowed to be bishops. Apparently some of our local priests will be leaving the church if women get this right???

OP posts:
MaryMungo · 03/01/2011 23:30

Maki- There were plenty of sweet babies born in unconventional places in 4BC. The question is why do you care about this baby. The answer to that should be "Because I believe the biblical prophecies concerning the coming of a messiah,including thee virgin birth" and not "Because everybody loves a creche."

MaryMungo · 03/01/2011 23:33

That's because the Medievals took their religion seriously :-D

maktaitai · 03/01/2011 23:45

I don't know, I think it's possible to care about an ordinary conception and birth being represented as something wonderful (I spent a few months attempting to care in the same way about the victory of the Maccabees, which for me had a lot less universal lustre) while thinking that biblical prophecies were as irrelevant as any other predictions of the future then or now.

MaryMungo · 03/01/2011 23:51

Maki- There were plenty of sweet babies born in unconventional places in 4BC. The question is why do you care about this baby. The answer to that should be "Because I believe the biblical prophecies concerning the coming of a messiah,including thee virgin birth" and not "Because everybody loves a creche."

MaryMungo · 03/01/2011 23:52

That's because the Medievals took their religion seriously :-D

MaryMungo · 03/01/2011 23:53

Ah, now we're getting into the diffeences betweenmale and female, masculine and feminine, and God, the Holy Spirit, Christ and the incarnated Jesus. God created male and female in His image. As God has no bits this must refer to masculinity and femininity, He must encompass these in at least one aspect of the trinity. Ditto for the Holy Spirit. The next bit is where it gets interesting- it actually left me a bit gobsmacked whenI started thinking about it. In fact can't do it on my phone hold on a bit

Catnao · 03/01/2011 23:53

Well - in defence of OTLS - s/he told what she thought honestly - I don't agree with her/his viewpoints - but I can see why s/he holds them. I know that I (as an ex - Roman Catholic - if there is such a thing - and still Christian believer, who lives with an atheist) struggle with my unmarried co habiting status morally - I guess I just hope that God forgives me and agrees with me that our son is best brought up in a loving and unmarried family...and that He'll forget the sex outside marriage thing in our case! Wink

SnowyGonzalez · 03/01/2011 23:57

I believe that the answer to this question of why some people choose misprint over faith is simple: because it serves them well to do so. It is no different from other forms of oppression throughout history: of blacks or whichever ethnic group makes you go all wibbly; of gays; of people with disabilities, of people with the 'wrong' religion, etc etc. When a whole culture endorses oppression of a given group it takes a someone very strong and secure in themselves to challenge it. And if Not Thinking Too Hard but instead Following The Status Quo means a bit of extra power over the oppressed, all the better.

And so it is that generations of Christians have committed themselves to living according to the many biblical exhortations to stand up for the oppressed Hmm. Instead of being freedom fighters we have instead become the oppressors. How pathetic.

SnowyGonzalez · 04/01/2011 00:00

Aaasrgh! "Misogyny", not "misprint"! Bloody auto-correct! Grin

lifeinCrimbo · 04/01/2011 00:14

I think its because some misprint men just like lording it over everyone, and want that spot saved for themselves (greedy).

Interestingly, on the subject of representations of femininity, the maori of New Zealand believe their church represents the womb. But iirc they dont have to have a man leading it, and men and women contribute in the worship. Although the men and women sit separately, incase another tribe attacks or something like that.

MaryMungo · 04/01/2011 00:21

Ugh DH has done something to the computer. Here goes with phone.

This is one way to think of the trinity: God (God) thinking (Holy Spirit) of Himself (Christ) eternally, with no beginning or end.

And then comes the incarnation. This is not Men in Black "Let's put on a man-suit" stuff. Jesus was not a random bit of flesh filled with the spirit of God. Jesus is the third person of the Trinity, eternal and almighty, not so much outside of time as encompassing it, squeezing himself down into a tiny Y chromosome and entering the ovum of the Virgin Mary, subjecting Himself to time from that point onward. It's like the Big Bang (PLEASE God forgive me don't read a pun in that). This little blastocyst is completely 100% God, completely 100% man, with no divisionpossible. After He died on the cross, He did not cast off His humanity, but retins it to this day- to the extent that he still carries his wounds .

animula · 04/01/2011 00:21

I'm intrigued by this thread.

Have been reading "Anglo-Catholic in religion", which is partly about the resurgence of Anglo-Catholicism in England in the first half of the twentieth-century.

They did see themselves as part of the Catholic Church, with the Pope as the authority. They went as far as thinking of the RC Church in England as schismatics from the RC Church-in-the-world. They also rather liked their sacramental light. Taking it out for a procession, and so on. And they believed in the whole apostolic succession thing, and spent a long time trying to get Rome to recognise it.

Transubstantiation, though important in forming a core around which identity-and-difference might be maintained was, arguably, less important than other issues in driving the the rise of Anglo-Catholicism in the period, and in being the focus/providing the affective core that made people identify as Anglo-Catholic.

But who were "they"? They were a splinter group, with a very questionable level of influence/authority, and, at times, teetered on the edge of what, really, could be called "Anglican".

I'm gathering from this discussion that Anglo-Catholicism is different now?? Very small??

The strangest thing is that a lot of what the Anglo-Catholics struggled to get adopted into mainstream Anglican worship was dropped in Vatican II.

I suppose I think that, even though, technically, transubstantiation is a significant marker of difference between the two Churches, experientially, the difference may well lie elsewhere.

I suspect the path across might not be that far at all. After all, lots have walked that way before.

Feel a bit sorry for all those Roman Catholics who would like their Church to modernise, however.

I do wonder how all these Churches are going to deal with ongoing modernity, however. And I'm waiting for the schism in the Anglican communion.

maktaitai · 04/01/2011 00:31

But what is different about Jesus not being a random bit of flesh filled with the spirit of God, and Jesus squeezing himself into a Y chromosome? They sound like the same thing?

And why so definitely a Y chromosome? Why not any old chromosome really?

maktaitai · 04/01/2011 00:32

Oh dear. It really isn't your responsibility MM to instruct me in the details of faith. Sorry.

animula · 04/01/2011 00:35

Btw - since there are informed folk here for this thread ... could anyone give me a potted version of the Arian heresy, so that my brain doesn't fold back on itself trying to understand the wikipedia entry?

lifeinCrimbo · 04/01/2011 00:36

Marymungo, I wonder why he went for the y chromosome. Surely that means he was more 'mary' than 'god'. The Y chromosome has bits missing.

It would be so cool if we had a bit of mary's DNA and a bit of Jesus', cause then we could work out God's DNA! Where are all those holy relics when you need them??
We might find out that the DNA was actually that of Joseph's best mate down at the workshop, and then we could have a holy jerry springer show.

Grin
animula · 04/01/2011 00:47

Actually, i should make that request a bit clearer:

Why did the Arian heresy matter so much to Newman that he became a Roman Catholic over it?

I have looked at wikipedia, but I'm a bit confused. Is it transubstantiation??

RRocks · 04/01/2011 00:48

RRocks - medieval fuzzy thinking? Such as?

Such as the requirement that priests be male:
the sacrifice of the mass is a wedding feast- the church, the people in the pews, are the Bride.

  • marriage is for male and female

  • the priest represents Christ (the bridegroom)

therfore the priest must be male.

Similarly, the requirement that priests should be celibate in real life because they are 'married' to the (female) church. [You might as well say that you can't become a ship's captain if you're married because you have to marry your female ship.]

Such as the ontological argument for the existence of God in Anselm and Aquinas.

I don't know what the arguments are for the virgin birth and assumption are, but I would be willing to bet that they don't stand up to examination.

Much of the thinking is just rationalising an already held position and is unconvincing.

Forgive me if I'm picking on the traditions of one particular church here - it will just be the one I know most of. (Having said that, I'm an atheist, so not well-versed in any religion.)

SnowyGonzalez · 04/01/2011 00:51

Isn't Selection of the X or Y chromosome down to chance, or whether Mary had a diet rich in pasta and Brie or something? So Jesus could have been a woman after all! I wonder if the name Jesus was originally androgynous, just in case? Grin

MaryMungo · 04/01/2011 00:59

Why the incarnation at all? Adam was created to be the pattern and progeitor of mankind, and master of the physical world. This is why Eve was crated from Adam And not by herself. When Adam disobeyed God he,in essence, said "I want no part of You". When Ada, chose to listen to satan over God he shut the material world off from God and passed his mastery over it to the devil. This is why there is entropy and chaos and all that goes with it.

Apart from altering how the physical world was supposed to work, this original sin stunted us spiritually, &dam's No engraved on all our hearts, barring God's entry. This is why the old testament seems so full of wrath. God could only affect us from the outside, like someone trying to communicate to a deaf man by shouting.

Christ became man, because it was his only way to get a toehold inour world to build upon. He bacame the new payten, the new &dam, and suddenly God could talk toour hearts again. Now mercy could come into the world.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1116102-to-get-a-boob-job-without-telling-mumtttt

lifeinCrimbo · 04/01/2011 01:00

Ah yes, the 3 in 1; part god, part human, part brie.

Oh wait have I got that wrong? Fully human, fully divine, and yet also, fully brie.

maktaitai · 04/01/2011 01:11

MM, thank you for continuing to post in interesting detail. We have come a long way from the original post, and I still don't think that a male priest is a necessity. But that would be because I don't believe any of it.

As for the link, I guess that's about degraded worship of the physical, now that the UK is 51% non-religious? fair enough.

MaryMungo · 04/01/2011 01:12

To catch up-

Know nothing about arianism Blush

priestly celibacy-only adiscipline, seeabove

why a Y chromosome- no randomness involved as Mary was a Virgin, God wasv having an Adamic Do-over so Adam=male Jesus=male

Andyes, Jesus's humanity was mostly Mary, is why Catholic church thinsshe is so special. Genealogy/genes musthave been important else lovingGodv would have incarnated out of first random female after Eve andsaved us alla lot of bother

MaryMungo · 04/01/2011 01:18

Oh, and Jesus=Yeshua=Joshua. No androgyny thereGrin

got to sleep now. Can blether on about whyJesus hadto die tomorrow if anyone still intersted...

on computer hopfully

blinking husband daftdownloading things allowing....

animula · 04/01/2011 01:19

Me neither, MM. Smile