to think that your religion can't be that important to you

[theevildead2]

if you can just "switch to catholicism" when it suits you?

There is a bit on the news at the moment about women maybe being allowed to be bishops. Apparently some of our local priests will be leaving the church if women get this right???

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry, I misunderstood.

I'm not Catholic myself so I didn't quite understand it. I know that it was a very important issue during the English Reformation, though, and I believe also quite important in the European Reformation. I think people then were more inclined perhaps to take a lot of time thinking about what the words of the service might mean, though. I guess they didn't have much else to go on!

I thought that Catholicism insisted that the religion had to be interpretted thru the guidance of the priests. Absolution (getting to Heaven) can only be done by following the guidance of the priests (and the dogma of their superiors). I think this is how the Roman religion worked, too?

Whereas Protestantism claimed that individuals could have direct relationships with God; what's in your heart (between you & God) is what matters in terms of getting to Heaven.

Meanwhile Judaism is about following the rules; you don't have to believe any of the mythology, just follow the rules and you'll get along (to heaven) nicely. Is that the way Mormonism works, too?

And Islam... well traditionally it was run like Catholicism but the radical modern view is to put your own interpretation on how to be a good Muslim by reading the Qu'ran for yourself, hence why we have extremist interpretations.

All religions have always had a lot of selective interpretation of their Holy Texts, though. What about Eastern Orthodox religion, isn't that all about getting to heaven thru the rituals and doing what the priests say?

This might be better suited to Pedants' Corner - but I thought that 'Protestant' meant those denominations other than Catholic or Anglican (Methodist, Presbyterian etc).

The bit I find most difficult to understand is why women would want to be part of any church that told them they were inferior to men.

Yes alcoholism and rape are not to be equalled.....but that just reinforces OTLS's intolerance. She/he will not be able to love her child unconditionally based on the comments made. I feel very sorry for any child he/she may have if it is being brought up with such views.

Gosh, if my child was gay, I would love him regardless, doesn't mean I would support/tolerate what he does.

buzz- You don't know that I don't take all the teachings the same way!

I'm by no means a bigot...the Bible says (not man I'll have you know) that homosexuality is wrong...it says that alcoholism is wrong...it says that adultery is wrong...I don't do any of these things because the Bible is a very big part of my life. I don't hide behind anything, or from anything, least of all people on a forum who want to call me a bigot, my conscience is clean come judgement day!

Yes Scurry but if you could get past your blidness, you'd see that I am speaking in Biblical terms only. Worldly terms speaks for themselves...rape gets you 8 years (?) murder 15 (?) alcoholism 24 hours (?).

The Bible doesn't measure these things the same way, that's all I was saying. In the Bible sin is equal, regardless of what that sin is.

Except to renounce the Holy Spirit-that's the unforgivable sin.

oh dear..., poor child.

Why don't you concentrate on the thread in hand and not my ability to parent?

Open, you've not answered: do you take the Bible literally in every way? Or have you also 'renounced the Holy Spirit' in one way or another?

I did answer you. Read up. I also asked you what you meant by literally.

It says don't lie, I don't...is that a literal interpretation would you say?

VictorianIce, plenty of women like the idea of a 'special role' for women, as opposed to equality, and like role models such as Julian of Norwich, campaigning nuns, Hildegard of Bingen, Saint Theresa of Aquila etc. Many also seem to like motherhood being raised to a divine level.

I'm with you though.

Open, I don't see your answer. Sorry, I may be being dim.

On this thread, people have pointed out that the Bible, if you take it literally (that means, 'letter by letter', or exactly), condemns many things. Most people don't accept all of it - eg., they don't try to take literally the entirety of both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, because the two contradict.

I think what confuses me and perhaps others, is how you'd choose which things to keep and which to reject.

Yes, Open - as BuzzLightBeer asked earlier, do you eat prawns and wear man-made fibres?

Because you should take all of the Bible literally, right? Not just the stuff about hating the 'sin' of homosexuality?

But as long as you love those 'sinners', right?

theevildead2 - maybe look up the difference between denomination and religion before you pronounce judgement?

Re sin and sinners. I'm a sinner - as are we all. I don't need to list my sins to know I'm a sinner. I don't need anyone else to list theirs. We don't get in to heaven based on how many or how few we have committed and how bad they are by human standards. Jesus Christ died to take my punishment - mine - just for me. My sins are between Him and me. Nobody else needs to know or condemn and I don't need to do that for anybody. All I need to say is I belong to Him. We make these things too complicated.......

As with so much else, though, it's so contradictory (I don't mean to get into nit-picking, but I think the way women are viewed by the Bible is important to this discussion). Motherhood is said to be divine in the same breath as teaching that pain in childbirth is a punishment for Eve's sin.

It's never going to be an argument that can be won by logic though - as faith is so separate from logical thought.

Have you watched the West Wing clip OTLS?

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?

"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

There's a v short booklet called "What God has made clean: if we can eat prawns, why is gay sex wrong?" by John Richardson which might help the debate remain more than a slanging match.

OTLS - Are you sure the bible says alcoholism is a sin? In those words? Only I think I've read most of it, and I don't recall that bit...

Probably only if you can post what's in it

Who is John Richardson?

Fallen, you missed the best bit! I love when they're all debating what's the first commandment and Bartlett walks in saying 'I am the Lord your God, thou shalt have no other gods but me'.

That has to be the best character entrance for any TV show, surely?

I love that scene, TheFallenMadonna.

No biggie. Catholics/high CofE really similar.

Not that much difference between all the christian denominational actually.
The transubstantiation thing is only a problem if you choose to look for problems.

Hang on hang on! Prawns? Are they not allowed?
I never knew

If anybody really cares about the "equality" of sins, the Catholic Church believes the homosexual act to on par with sex outside of marriage. Homosexuality not acted upon is, of course, not a sin.