to be totally fed up with all this gendered talk?

[AGCG]

Why is it that nearly every mum I meet wants to neatly categorise all the babies into two groups: boys, who all behave in this way, and girls, who all behave in that way - even when the sentence includes the phrase 'oh except for so-and-so' - that is, in the face of completely contradictory evidence, this baby behaves in this way because he is a boy, and this baby behaves in that way because she is a girl. They're not even three months old yet!

It's driving me insane - I currently know 10 baby boys (including mine) and 7 baby girls and, guess what? They are ALL DIFFERENT. No wonder we bring up little gender sterotypes when, from the moment they are born, we are looking at their behaviour in this way, reinforcing everything the little one does as 'just like a boy/girl'?

When I was little, I hated dresses and all I wanted to do was run around and get muddy and then play with lego; other girls wanted to wear pink dresses and play with barbies - isn't this evidence of the diversity of children's likes, dislikes etc? Why do we have to narrow them down to just one choice of colour (pink or blue), one set of toys (dolls or cars), a prescribed set of behaviours?

Grrrr.

I agree there are large areas of overlap from boys and girls behaviour and what are seen as "gender traits"

But there are some general differences among many girls and boys and you ignore these at your peril. An example, I help at DD's school (she's year 1, age 5 -6 ) and, largely, the boys present many different challenges to the girls, being louder, more easily distracted, finding "carpet time" much harder, almost without exception. After playtime, when they have had a good run around the playground, they are much happier and calmer, ready to learn. Education needs to take account of this. (I also have a DS, 3, hence my interest in boys education).

I've read some interesting stuff on the effect of feminism on boys - i.e. trying to treat boys and girls the same leaves boys feeling confused and guilty for activities they naturally enjoy such as play fighting. Not sure I agree with the slur on feminism but it did make me think.

So I have come to beleive that some awareness of gender differences are useful and necessary.

What about all the boys that feel out of place because they don't meet the stereotype of a boy? What about the ones that don't want to fight but feel they have too or want to play with a dolly but aren't allowed? Last time I checked feminism was about not treating people as a homogeneous mass either which way. Treat kids like individual kids.

I have a 4 yr old DS and a nearly 2yr old DD. Being a left-leaning lunatic social experimenter I haven't been keeping DD away from the 'boys' toys and she currently has a major transport fixation - trains, planes, cars, diggers etc, she loves them.

She's dressed mainly in leggings/dungarees, but I have noticed that even at this age girls shoes are not the same as boys - not chunky and robust and designed for running around, oh no!

Oh come on, Clarkes is stuffed with Doodles and Cica sandals in summer which are absolutely fine for tree climbing etc - sure there are impractical girls' sandals but you don't have to buy them. Walking boots can be obtained in pink but you're perfectly free to choose the other colours as my DD did. And the fashionable choice appears to be baseball boots or canvas sneakers which (so long as you eschew sequins etc) are just as practical as the 'boys' ones.

Sorry, I don't buy this 'girls aren't allowed to play' line - my DD has just been out playing in the snow in the dark with her friend for two hours and I didn't have any problem at all finding her appropriate gear for that.

Grimma. I agree. There are tonnes of girls clothes/shoes out there that are not pink/lilac and practical as well I have bought a dino mad dd dino wellies. Rain coat etc and she looks great in them. And bonus I can pass them on to her brother too he has also worn her velvet brown flares and adorable in them.

I have a daughter and my sister has a son and the number of times she has 'won' an argument by saying,'If you had a son...' - also, 'If you had a two/ three/ four year old...'

Basically my sister likes to be right and uses any argument and this is a large part of it. I do think there are gender differences but the most useful preferences on a day to day basis are personality ones. I don't buy presents or talk to children based on gender differences but what (usually little) I know of their personality or circumstances.

I like my daughter to have a broad range of experiences and at the moment she is enjoying pink as her favourite colour and she likes playing pirates and fairies and cars (she is 2.5). I'm sure it will be more girlie once she starts responding to other girls and what they want or enjoy.

I hate the way boys clothes are rougher, scratchier, thicker and less comfy. Come summer, girls have delicate Indian cotton blouses - boys have thick woven cotton ones. As babies! And all the murky, muddy, browns and khakis make me . And "little monkey" "here comes trouble" "beep beep". Better than "princess" "angel" etc but only just.

It always amuses me that Victorian girls were obsessed by blue, as that was their colour - so delicate and refined and dainty. Boys were in pink as it was bold, vibrant and passionate, being so allied to red.

Pink fixation being innate? Not so much.

YANBU my dd is an ants in her pants, science loving, silly in the extreme type of girl. She makes fart/poo/bum jokes hourly, she has no interest in clothes although she will be glad of a new dress/outfit. She has never liked dolls/barbies etc. These have been bought for her before and she turns her nose up.

My ds1 however takes great delight in wearing his sisters dresses . He still doesn't like dolls or barbies though. It seems all that sparkly shit will never darken my door.

Maybe my ds2 will like dolls lol, it's very hard to buy for girls who don't actually go in for the girly stuff. My dd has asked for a Woody doll. I know for a fact she will glance at it and it will go in the toy box, along with the furreal kitty she wanted last year.

I'm not wasting my money any more.

Not really perfect storm, you could just put your ds in a t-shirt or vest . It does get on my nerves how little choice there is for boys clothes, but then again exactly how many options are available for boys. T-shirt/long sleeved shirt/jumper and erm shorts or long trousers. Not exactly inspiring.

Ds1 lives in shorts and t-shirts in the summer, long sleeved shirts and jogging bottoms/jumpers in the winter. Not that much choice needed.

I'm due my PFB in a few weeks and what really REALLY drives me mad is how impossible it is to buy neutral clothes that could be used for either sex. I don't want stacks of pink or crap with hearts and stars and sweetie pie, little babe etc written all over it. I just want plain, simple colours and patterns. I've bought more boys clothing than girls because anyone can wear blue, green etc. I actually like pink on a boy just not with hearts ffs.

Still, the look on friends faces when I said I wasn't buying the baby lots of girls stuff was total and I was repeatedly told that I had to buy her pink in part so people could "tell what she was"

I don't wish to assume peoples clothes budget but the crap some of you describe sounds like Market stuff. If you want boys or baby clothes that are really trendy And well made but cheap, try h&m. ( not for girls tho all hello kitty) Sales even better For girls if yr fairly well off try verbadaut. If yr on a budget try eBay and put in yr favourite brand, I never have trouble getting girls clothes that arnt horrid slogan types as girls sections have a much bigger range generally but for boys it's h&m every time for my son and I always get comment on how nice, cool he looks.

Beijingaling - if you actually are in Beijing this will be no good, but Next do nice, brightly coloured, unisex babygros...

Longinsellyjosie. I am indeed in Beijing so I'm stuck with either the cheapo markets here (which I'm a bit precious about TBH) or mothercare which is three times the price of the UK, has shitty stock levels and really focuses on the gender specific clothing. I suppose when you only have one child you and can afford to shop there you can buy everything in "gender appropriate" colours. Thank god that M&S deliver! Thanks for the tip with Next though, I can ask mum to look.

it's very hard to buy for girls who don't actually go in for the girly stuff.

No, really, it isn't. You can buy them anything - k'nex, lego, ant farms , pirate chests, electronics kits, chemistry set - just a few of the things my non girly DD has had over the years. This year her main present will be a soldering iron and some kits that need soldering. (she's yr 7 and was wowed by her first terms Tech module!)

How is it harder to buy this for a girl than for a boy?

"Not really perfect storm, you could just put your ds in a t-shirt or vest hmm."

And in 35 degree heat that is far too hot, not to mention affording very little sun protection. Have you ever been to Australia?

Should explain that he gets murderous prickly heat. Standard weight t shirt cotton, the knitted kind, means his neck, back and shoulders are covered with painful, itchy mini blisters. I buy him girls blouses in that ultra-lightweight cotton weave at the moment but he's 2 now - can't get away with that much longer.

I do find there is a disproportionate amount of pink clothes for girls to non-pink clothes for girls. I also hate all the hearts and flowers and cutie pie crap thats on them as well. I went to buy a pair of shoes for DD, (2) recently and noticed that really, they were a little too 'girly'. I just wanted a pair a sneakerish type shoes and picked up some from the 'boys' side, little brown ones. Perfect... they go with everything. The sales lady came over and said, 'those are for boys'... I said 'if they fit, they're fine.' The only pink thing that I have tolerated for DD was pink barrette's that were tanks; they were pretty funny. As far as toys go, I don't care what she gets, my only rule is no battery toys. Fecking annoying.

In the summer though, if DD isn't naked, she's in light dresses, just cause it makes sense for staying cool.

I mainly shop in MandS and John Lewis and it's not impossible but it certainly requires thought and there are definitely boys' clothes and girls' clothes as opposed to babies' clothes.

Dressing her in clothes with trains/cars etc on them feels as inauthentic as dressing her in clothes with pink flowers/butterflies tbh She's only 7 months and it's only going to get worse.

Beijingaling you're really at the hard end of the gender wedge there aren't you?

It's not that hard to buy what you want for a boy or girl. Some people are far too fussy.

I'm nearly 50. At my girls school not only did we do domestic science and needlework which I really enjoyed - I had to drop them at 14 because I was regarded as too clever to continue them to GCSE.

I think things have moved on quite a lot actually and as the mother of teenagers make the most of this brief period when you can actually try to influence what your children wear. DD and I went shopping last week - black jumper, black jeans, black top, black coat, ..oh and a grey long tunic thing.

Thanks for your posts everybody, glad to know it's not just me!

I've seen PinkStinks before, love it!

Multi-coloured is def the way to go - if I can find it as he gets older! - cue more comments though of the kind I heard last time I took him to health visitor to be weighed: "another one in stripes, means you can't tell if it's a boy or a girl" ... umm ... why does it matter? You could always ask, I won't be offended!

StewieGriffinsMom - yes! thank you! and rinabean, thank you you really made me laugh!