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Original poster

Institutional Sexism

74 replies

RoseByAnyOtherName · 16/12/2010 21:31

I received the Mumsnet weekly email today, and noticed an advert for work on the 2011 census. Having not worked since having children 7 and a half years ago I thought this would be an ideal opportunity to do some part time work and see how work fitted in with family life, without taking on a long term commitment. But guess what: the census work is between either 21st March - 6th May or 6th April - 6th May. And which major school holiday falls during that period: the 9th - 25th April are the school Easter holidays. Surely it should be illegal for a major government employment programme [they state they will be recruiting 35000 people], which is for 4 to 6 weeks only, advertising specifically to 'returning parents', to coincide with a national 2 week school holiday.

The census could be held outside the Easter holiday period without too much inconvenience to anyone. To hold it during that period actively discriminates against prospective employees with family responsibilities. Is the State breaking any (of its own) laws?

OP posts:
ChaoticChristmasAngelCrackers · 17/12/2010 01:11

It's not sexist and if you have children and are looking for a job then you have to be prepared to find childcare.

ShoppingDays · 17/12/2010 01:12

Possibly, as the dates have been put exactly where the school holidays are when they could have been timed otherwise.

"Not more so than any other job, is it?"

notjustapotforsoup · 17/12/2010 01:24

Err, a full time job wouldn't have time off for holidays.

Focus your energies on the men and the childcare thing. Really.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 01:32

hmmm I'm on the fence, ON the one hand it's not inherently sexist

ON the other hand, the only way you can convince yourself it's not sexist is if you imagine yourself to be living in a society where there is no gender divide, where women aren't disproportionately burdened by child-care responsibilities. When you look at how the real world is set up and structured, then you have to admit that this work excludes women, rather than men

santasakura · 17/12/2010 01:33

not everyone's got a man notjustapotforsoup

notjustapotforsoup · 17/12/2010 01:37

I am not discounting that fact, sakura.

But really? Can't do X because of Eastder holidays? Or Y because of the Summer holidays? Or Z because of the Xmas ones? What about half term?

This is a childcare issue if it is anything. That's where equality lies. Whether that is couple-decided or outsourced.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 01:49

santasakura, if it's anything like 20 years ago, there were more women than men in my training intake.

Enumerator work can be done in the evenings and at weekends; very little point trying in the daytime, because so many people are at work.

booyhohoho · 17/12/2010 01:52

OP that is not sexism.

it is work that has to be carried out and that time period has been chosen over others for what i am sure are very good reasons, none of which are to do with discouraging parents of school age children from applying.

if a job is advertised for a night-shift worker would you say the employer is being discriminatory against single parents who cannot leave the house at night? no, you wouldn't you would look at your particular individual family circumstances and decide whether you could do the job. teh same as this. most jobs require people to work whilst children are off school on holidays. that is not discrimination.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 01:52

OLKN, yes i've no doubt more women take on this type of work than men

notjust, yes, I think the workplace is set up to disadvantage parents (read: mothers) . In Sweden, for example, all offices close at 4-ish so collecting the kids doesn't have to fall to the mothers, or so a single mother can take a job she otherwise couldn't have.
Changing the structure of the workplace is the key to women's equality in politics and business.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 01:53

it's not discrimination, per se but in order to believe it's not sexist, you have to pretend that childcare responsibilities don't disproportionately fall to mothers.

confuddledDOTcom · 17/12/2010 01:57

It doesn't really pay that much and it's not paid at the end of the month like a normal job (my parents have been doing census and canvas for the last nine years) so it is a big difference from getting childcare when you have regular employment.

My dad actually gets most of his canvas done in the daytime.

notjustapotforsoup · 17/12/2010 02:05

Great point about it being evenings and weekends. So, it is actually a perfect job for wives. But not single parents. Confused Could be a good second job for husbands, though.

I do actually agree, Sakura. But this job is not the battleground, perhaps.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 02:28

santasakura, I'm sorry, I'm confused. In one post, you say "...you have to admit that this work excludes women, rather than men", and when I said there were more women than men when I last did it, you reply, "OLKN, yes i've no doubt more women take on this type of work than men."

So which is it?

santasakura · 17/12/2010 02:37

it doesn't surprise me that women take on these types of jobs, and manage, somehow to scramble around for childcare for themselves, despite the fact that the hours have clearly been designed to make it difficult for parents/mothers

notjustapotforsoup · 17/12/2010 02:40

I don't think they have been designed that way. I don't credit the organisers with that much thought. But flexible hours (which they are) are surely better than nothing? How would you have organised it? Simply to fit around term time?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 02:44

The hours were easy for me, because I had DH, who took over childcare duties after his 9-5. Me working crappy antisocial hours jobs (evenings, weekends, full-time CM from 6am - 6pm...) was how we got through paying 15% mortgage interest and the Poll Tax, which doubled our "community" contribution.

I realise that the situation is different for lone parents, but that's no different from any other job. If anything, it's easier and cheaper to get evening babysitters than daycare, or was in my experience.

I still don't see how you can simultaneously say that more women take on this type of work, yet claim it excludes women?

santasakura · 17/12/2010 02:47

more women take it on because of the low-pay and flexibility, because of their children, of course. If women didn't have children to care for we'd all be shooting up the career ladders like men.
And yet.. no consideration has been given to the fact that parenting is gendered in this job. Would it have killed them to make the job mother-friendly?

santasakura · 17/12/2010 02:48

to fit around school hours

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 02:48

The hours, btw, were (in my day) completely flexible; you could do your house checks any time until (IIRC) 9pm; I can't recall the earliest start because that was impractical for me.

You just had to cover everyone in your designated area.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 02:48

Well, we've X posted...

booyhohoho · 17/12/2010 08:52

more women take it on because of low pay? Hmm

or less men take it on because of the low pay?

Niceguy2 · 17/12/2010 08:59

The only sexism I can see is the assumption that childcare is a woman's job.

As a guy who up until recently was a full time single dad, I would have been in exactly the same boat had I have wanted to apply for said job.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 09:01

more women are willing to take low-paid jobs

childcare disproportionately fals to women; to think otherwise is naive

booyhohoho · 17/12/2010 09:20

yes but the women don't take the jobs because of the low pay as stated in your post.

no woman i know will apply for a job because it has low pay.

frgr · 17/12/2010 09:22

The only sexism here I see is from people agreeing with the OP's rather thick line of thought. My children's care falls on the shoulders of their father AND me. He takes his annual leave to cover holidays or emergency days off. Those calling for making jobs "mother friendly" do nothing to break the link that childcare = mother's responsibility that any woman should be fighting for in 2010.

If you have a self-imposed limitation on the hours or location you can work (be it how you split up your childcare duties or whether you're willing to travel, work evenings, whatever) that's your own responsibility. Although these posts aren't even particularly parent-unfriendly because their hours during the evenings go on to 9pm. If you class term-time, school-time-only jobs as the only ones which are suitably unsexist, then I shudder to think at how the country would work if you ever got to legislate re: the labour force.

Basically, the only women who may have a problem with this are either the ones who have chosen for childcare duties to fall almost exclusively on their shoulders, or have lazy fecks of husbands, or those who are unwilling to be in the least bit flexible. I suggest you take it up with the father of your children, in most cases - the problem is with YOUR setup, not institutional sexism.

It's threads like these that do more harm than good to getting women's equal participation in the workforce.

We don't all want to fit into "mommy" careers, thank you very much - some of us have decided to step out of the 1950s home life setup that has no place in modern Britain.