to be properly offended by this numpty?

[maighdlin]

i love the BBC's have your say section. interesting read and you do get some clever people on it. today they were talking about "sexual" items aimed at children, t shirts that say "porn star" etc. one person said this

This does need to be addressed. Kids should be kids. I dispise seeing kids forced to give up fun for 'education' (some kids dont have a clue about fun) and I dispise seeing kids (usually young girls) wanting to look and act like tarts.

In my family I have cousins who were barely up to my knee in height but dance like lapdancers because of the pop singers at the time. Luckily their parents make them dress appropreately but I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases. Being taught the difference between a prostitute/lapdancer/stripper and normal behaviour would make all the difference.

I completely agree with what they are saying except for the " I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases" WTF????? I am very rarely offended but how bloody dare they say that a girl having low self esteem means she gets raped??? I hate this attitude that some people "deserve" or "ask for it" when it comes to rape. Rape is rape no matter what you are wearing or whatever. Its a stupid misogynistic way to think that only "good" girls get raped.

Im not sure im even making sense here but am so effing angry at this ignorance AIBU to think that some uninformed ignorant dickhead wrote this?

[Goldenbear]

notmyproblem, I think you live in some kind of Fantasy land if you think equipping yourself or being equipped with the list of attributes/knowledge you outlined above would prevent crime,....yes because there are only 'goodies' and 'badies' in this world, no ambiguities, no grey, just black and white, so if you can't identify the 'badies' then you are just 'naive' or an 'idiot' and deserve what's coming to you? I think with ideas(?) like these you are the one who is displaying a sheltered upbringing or limited intelligence?

[RunnerHasbeen]

The difference between risk and blame really needs to be taken into account here, some people are being attacked for assigning blame to the victim when all they are doing is trying to assess different risks. Looking for risk factors is not siding with the rapists in any way, and it doesn't help in any case fighting with anyone who voices things in a way you take umbrage to (not OP, YANBU).

If someone was to (purely theoretically) point out the rape victims were less often male (though obviously no risk absolutes), lots of people here would be shouting: "why should we have a sex change, how dare you say it is my fault I haven't managed to grow a beard," It just makes everyone in-fight and look bad, when surely it would be better to actually listen to each other.

If someone says that in their opinion raising self esteem might help because the person is less likely to look for validation from sexual attention at a younger age or drink to excess for added confidence (never once using phrases like "asking for it" or "blame") - why can't you argue rationally against that instead of making leaps by reading between the lines and spoiling for a fight. I don't mean any one person, just the tone in general, it is kind of bullying, ganging up and mean (and sounds a little stupid).

[HecTheHallsWithBoughsOfHolly]

What should the focus be though? Teaching young girls to not behave like lapdancers (fair enough!) or teaching young boys that women are not objects and they do not have the right to lay a finger on them?

By focusing on how girls need to change you are assigning blame to them, whether you say it or not.

[otchayaniye]

Very good post, Runnerhasbeen

[LoudRowdyDuck]

I see what you're saying, runner.

But it is stupid (not to say, wrong) to pretend you can say why you've avoided being raped. How could you tell?

not is also, I think, ignoring the facts that most rapes are not carried out by opportunistic strangers on drunk women.

[begonyabampot]

notmyproblem did say 'I've been lucky' so she isn't saying that you can avoid rape by following her points, her points are about having awareness and I guess 'self esteem' which might help against becoming a victim in some cases and not just talking about rape. And it shouldn't be the case but looking back I do count myself 'lucky' that I didn't suffer a more serious sexual attack then the 'milder' ones I did experience, given some of the situations I put myself in, and I know that rapes occur when sober, with family/friends ect.

I don't think it's helpful just to say women can drink to whatever excess they want, have as many casual sexual encounters as they want without realising that some of these things might make them vulnerable to 'any' kind of assault really.

Also with the self esteem issue, it is important when thinking of women who seem to be conditioned to abusive behaviour but seem to lack the strength to get away from that relationship and break the cycle of ending up with abusive partners - that being physically or sexually abusive. Also goes the same for poor kids in abusive situations who can only help their situation if their esteem is raised.

Runnerhasbeen has said it much more eloquently then me though.

[tabouleh]

notmyproblem - your post is like a 101 for rape myths!

You are obviously not aware that most rapes are committed not by strangers but by people you know!

Can't you see how sad it is that your message to girls is ""be smart, trust your instincts, get out of there if you sense trouble".

Of course "you should be able to do anything you want and not fear rape" - don't you feel it is worthwhile campaigning to get to that situation!

My thinking was probably more like yours a few years ago and I remember when I lived in London on my own my Mum would be concerned about me walking home alone etc - what she should have been more concerned about was if I did not go home alone - since rape by an acquaintance is far more common.

That is a message that needs to be taught!


"But by making an effort not to walk around like a naive idiot I've done my part to prevent this horrible crime from happening to me." this is extremely extremely offensive and I recommend that you apologise.

Lots of people suggesting that girls dress more appropriately/don't go with strangers/have better self esteem etc:

Rapists are lazy and they might be looking for more vulnerable targets but they will still rape someone. Old ladies/nuns/young children are all raped you know.

All this talk of raising self esteem is also bullshit (will be good in general) but if everyone's self esteem is raised then some will still have lower self esteem than average - then what?

Rapists need to stop raping - that's the key message.

In my local newspaper a few weeks ago there was a story about a flasher who was exposing himself to school girls.

Police advice reported in the paper: girls are advised to not walk alone in XYZ area etc etc. (hmm at 8am in the morning FFS)

The advice should be: girls - continue as usual - we will catch this man. To the man - this is a criminal offense - we will catch you very soon. To other men - do not do this - this is a crime - we will catch you.

[tabouleh]

mjinsparklystockings

"Women dont get raped because they are drunk, but there does have to be a certain level of personal respponsibility."

No there does not need to be. Men need to be responsible for not raping.

"the sorts of laws they want to bring in, and at least 2 of the scenarios, in my mind, that would become reclassified as raped, were mutual, consensual sex, involved 2 parties who were both inebriated, and then the woman felt violated in the morning."

Could you elaborate a bit more?

"There is a gulf of difference between a situation when both parties were in the same state, and when one was sober, one drunk and a power play/taking advantage scenario occurs."

Why are you making this distinction?

How about this scenario - drunk driver knocks over drunk pedestrian who is slowly crossing the road.

When you have had a drink you have to "remember" to not drive. When you have had a drink you have to "remember" not to rape! I.e. to be certain that you have consent - if you're not going to be certain then don't have sex/don't drink that night.

[begonyabampot]

'Police advice reported in the paper: girls are advised to not walk alone in XYZ area etc etc. (hmm at 8am in the morning FFS)

The advice should be: girls - continue as usual - we will catch this man. To the man - this is a criminal offense - we will catch you very soon. To other men - do not do this - this is a crime - we will catch you.'

Tabouleh - don't agree, so you would happily disregard the threat posed and let you DD carry on as usual - seriously, just to make a point on how things should be?

[tabouleh]

begonyabampot - go back and read my post and see how fucking sad it is that the police/the newspaper and seemingly lots of MNers think that the key advice is to restrict the movement of girls rather than focussing on catching the guy!

Why do you think there is a message for girls in the paper and not a message for the offender?

Why are girls and women living in fear rather than the rapists and sexual offenders?????

I have 1 DS and he is 3.0 so I don't have to think about this wrt to a DD.

But of course relating it to myself I would be apprehensive of walking in that area.

[HerBeatitude]

Years ago i used to go clubbing with a group of friends among whom were 4 men.

We all used to get trashed, I used to drink vast, unreasonable quantities of booze and my friends would literally carry me home. I was staying at one of my male friend's flat at the time, so it was always off to his place we went, and his mates came in and carried on drinking and talking into the small hours while I went and crashed out in a disgraceful drunken heap somewhere.

Not one of them ever raped me, ever. Because none of them were rapists. he alcohol didn't make me vulnerable, because there were no rapists there. Alcohol doesn't turn a man into a rapist.

[begonyabampot]

her beatitude - i don't agree. If you are in that state you are vulnerable to many situations, it can never be good to get into such a state and I've done it myself far too often. I'm glad you never got raped, i don't go round thinking every guy is a rapist waiting to pounce but some men who are rapists do look for opportunities like this and as I said it can never be a good idea to get into such a state that you are completely out of it and of course it would be the guys fault - not yours but in situations like this we should be more responsible as to how vulnerable we leave ourselves.

[HerBeatitude]

My point is, I wasn't vulnerable because of booze - because I was with men who were not rapists.

"Drink driving is illegal, drunken sex is not."

Rape is though.

Penetration without consent is not drunken sex, it is rape.

All of us with sons, have the responsibility to tell them that.

If a blind drunk girl takes a dildo and shoves it into the arsehole of a blind drunk boy, she is committing a sexual assault, however drunk she is. She is responsible for her criminal behaviour, however drunk she is. Just as she is if she gets behind the wheel of a car. Just as a blind drunk boy is, if he sticks his penis into a girl who is too drunk to consent.

Tell your DS that MJ, that's what I'll be telling mine. If he ever mistakes rape for drunk sex, it won't be because his mum hasn't explained the difference.

[Sakura]

I lived in Russia, where rape is rife. I was twenty one and I lived there for a year. I behaved like a proper idiot. I would hitch-hike home late at night after drinking on a regular basis. When I look back, I wonder how I'm still alive.

But I was never raped.

Because I was never in the presence of a rapist.

People forget... that for a woman to be raped, there has to be a rapist around.

[begonyabampot]

but that's why it is so difficult to get a conviction in the 'drunken rape' scenario. it is very difficult to know what really went on when the 2 people involved were so drunk they probably don't remember everything themselves. If I was on a jury for this kind of alleged rape, i would find it very difficult to decide beyond reasonable doubt, especially if her word against his. That is why most reported assaults where large amounts of drink is involved probably don't make it to court or the woman probably decides not to report in the first place. would be much better all round if we work on getting people not to get so drunk in the first place.

[HerBeatitude]

No, it would be better if we could get men to stop raping women.

However, I don't disagree that we should also work on stopping people getting hideously drunk - that's not good for anyone, but it's a separate issue from rape IMO.

Because if there are no other witnesses, the "he said she said" scenario is exactly the same, even if both parties were as sober as a judge.

[Goldenbear]

Mjinsparklystockings if you went in to town, got very drunk and decided to have sex with someone and regretted it the next day it is not rape. If you did not consent to that sex it would be rape! I do not see how this is unclear to anyone.

[HerBeatitude]

Yes regretting consensual sex isn't rape.

Hell, I've had loads of regrettable consensual sex.

[Sakura]

because society belives women lie about being raped (when frankly, they've got better things to do with their time)

And that men don't lie about being rapists (when the truth is that rapist-liars have got a vested interest in lying)

[HerBeatitude]

Yes no one ever makes the connection that women have no reason to lie about rape, while rapists have every reason to lie about it.

The idea that women lie about it, is based on the notion that however normal we seen, deep down we are hysterical nutters who are liable to make insane allegations just for attention. It's based on the idea of women as being inferior to men - because men would never do anything as irrational, hysterical and downright insane as that, would they?

And rapists are never questioned about their attitudes to sex, women, consent, etc. in the dock. Whereas their victims are interrogated about their sex lives, fantasies, previous partners, etc., even though they're not supposed to be.

[HerBeatitude]

Well yes, I do expect young men to take all the responsibility for not raping a young woman (or an old one for that matter).

I don't expect young women to take responsibility for young men's actions. Only for their own.

And the fact is, young women who find themselves in the siutation you describe mj, on the whole chalk it up to experience, feel bad about, blame themselves (as you suggest is right) and move on. They don't go to the police about it.

While the young men go on to rape other women in similar circumstances.

[MrManager]

Men are not rapists. Rapists are rapists.

"Tell your sons what rape is"
"Men need to be told not to rape"
Fuck right off. Men don't need to be told not to rape someone. Rapists are the one with that problem.