to set the record straight on tuition fees

[happiestblonde]

Okay, following another week of violent protests by students who probably haven't actually read the coalition's plans for tuition fees I think someone needs to put facts out there.

1. NO ONE PAYS UP FRONT. Not students, not parents, regardless of family wealth. So no students ever pay, only graduates on decent incomes.
2. With the current system graduates start repaying tuition fees once they earn £15k. This is not much money.
3. The coalitions proposals mean graduates (not students, not their families - so being from a 'poor' background shouldn't matter) once they earn over £21k. Even then they only pay back 9% of income OVER 21k.
4. With the new system all students actually pay £45 less per month because of the rise from 15k to 21k.
5. Most students now take out loans for tuition fees. Their parents do not pay. My father didn't pay for mine despite being able to quite easily because it is my own debt. Therefore the argument that it harms poorer students does not stand - the new proposals entirely remove the burden for payment to GRADUATES earning over £21k per year (and even then they will pay very little per month).
6. If you lose your job or quit work you stop paying.
7. There will be a lot more money put in for poorer students and a rise in maintenance grants, just in case poor students are disincentivised because they don't understand the proposals
8. If students don't pay, who should? Is it not 'fair' that those who are earning more as a result of their degree should pay back the cost of it? Why should a single mother, pensioner, or another young person who hasn't had the chance to go to university foot the bill?

Sorry if patronising, I presume most mners know this but trots like Aaron Porter seem to be taking over the dialogue and I find it wildly irritating. The coalition proposals are more 'progressive' than the current system.

Oh and Labour brought in top up fees.

Growl.

'The thing is, students come up from school thinking that learning must happen in lessons - which obviously, is an attitude that needs to change'

One of sh;s fellow students filed a complaint this week that having other students around him was imapcting negatively on his learning experience and he wants the class halved with teh Lecturer delivering teh same contact hours to each half group.

much hilarity ensued at the subsequent board meeting (DH is student rep so attends).

Mind, he also put in a complaint that he should get higher grades than X as he was clearly brighter and amrks should reflect perceived ability as well as presented coursework, and tried to get 2 Lecturers dismissed as he didn;t like them.

He was student rep; now DH is. Go figure LOL.

My son has lived on just student loans for 4 years, working in teh summer for the past 3 years. He has lived on this and his overdraft really well, still paying 95 quid for a shirt and eating out five times a week.

He did earn 700 a week in his first two years though during two months in the summer, and this last year earnt 900 a week for two months.

It can be done. However he feels the debt of 22k is negligible considering he walks from uni into a job paying 50k plus bonuses at 22.

His brother is adamant though that he will not pay the higher fees putting more pressure on him this year to get 3 A*s to get into his preferred Uni, a gap year is no longer a choice.

Yes, Ephiny I agree with you. My dd is now in a job she loves but which pays the minimum wage and so she has not reached the level where she has to pay any of her student loan back. We are not paying it off for her, because we can't afford to even though our income is above average, as I've already said, because next year our income dips to retirement level. I think it would be very unfair if other graduates earning far more than her didn't have any loan to repay because THEIR PARENTS were on a low income.

at santas.

But then, you can understand it, can't you? When I was an undergraduate it didn't occur to me to think about how contact time worked for the teachers - only for me! (Mind you, I was quite a dozy undergrad ...).

Last time I looked at feedback sheets the commonest request was 'can we have more one-to-one teaching please?'. I can see why they want it and it is not a stupid request at all. It's just that it's not efficient and, eventually, not very good for them either.

So far (my course doesn't formally start until next term), I've had two very polite requests that I translate the text because 'it will take us too long' and 'it is not part of my degree to study a foreign language so I don't think it is fair'. On the one hand I want to make and faces, but on the other, it seems a bit rude of me to be scornful when they're so very scared about money and jobs - which they really are.

My dd is in her first year at uni. We are on a very low income so she receives a full grant plus loan for tuition fees and a further loan. She is currently managing very well on the money she receives but I think that is mainly to do with the fact that she doesn't spend money on alcohol.

One of the things she looked at when comparing univeristies was what amount of bursary she would get as most unis give bursaries to students who receive a full grant. This means that on top of her loans and grant she gets a bursary of £800. If she had been academically outstanding at her uni and had got an A and 2 Bs minimum she would have been eligible for a scholarship as well as she is studying Maths.

If you take on a mortgage though Ephiny you get a known benefit from day one ie a house to live in. The benefit of university is less quantifiable.

Fees DO have to be paid upfront though and are covered by a tuition fee loan. Interest is payable on the loan from the day you take it out which is the first day of your course - the rate is currently 1.5%.

Larry my eldest studies Maths and got no extra money for anything unfortunately.

Living costs are another matter, but isn't that what the student maintenance loan is for, with the additional advantage that now no fees are paid upfront, this can be used purely for living costs. There are supposed to be means-tested grants and bursaries for students from poorer families as well.

Admittedly it's not very much, but students have always lived on a pittance, hence the stereotype of living on beans and rice, wearing jumpers with holes in etc. If rich parents want to give their grown-up offspring extra money for iPhones and clubbing and fashion and holidays and cars and luxury accommodation then that's up to them, but it's not essential!

classydive where is your ds studying?

Dd is at Keele and although the university was not allowed as a whole to take more students this year the Maths dept was allowed to expand which could be why scholarships were being awarded.

It is a really good idea to check out where you can get extra money from - agree with that larry.

Ephiny there are two separate loans one for the tuition fees that ARE paid upfront as I have just explained and a separate maintenance loan for living costs.

Wot everyone else said [who agree with me ]

And on contact time ...

A university is a place and community of learning, not a supermarket. The students learn by doing as much as being taught. They do with each other some of the time (presenting in a seminar or tutorial) and that isn't always me 'teaching' them as such. But it is one of the most valuable pieces of learning they will get: because explaining something to someone else is one of the hardest things...

And they will learn the MOST in discursive subjects by writing an essay on it. Not me lecturing at them. My essay question writing skills, my marking time, my feedback on their essays - that is ALL learning.

And this is leaving aside all the other resources that cost money at a university: the books, journals, the electronic subscriptions, the reading lists, the online learning resources, the labs, the wireless access points, the support staff.

Leaving aside research for now, the cost of university is not just the cost of one hour's contact time.

Of course, most university lectures would prefer to be able to improve their students' learning too, and some of that might include a wish to increase contact time (I'd love to see my students more often actually) but unfortunately managers will not allow it, even with 9k fees because - did you miss this part OP? - the new system will be a NET LOSS to teaching resources.

This is just one reason - leaving aside the scandalous impact this will have on participation rates by poor students - why EVERYONE should be cross about this move.

Only just read the OP and yes YABU and patronising, everyone is aware of what these proposals will cost. You cannot get away from the fact that they are tripling fees.

Where is it spelt out that they will help poorer students more than the do now, by how much? They haven't said this at all.

Also there will be no free university education for anyone, whether your family have an income of £1million or £10,000. Everyone will pay the fees of up to 9K per year, unless you never work full time. Any means tested help is toward living costs.

Apologies if this question has already been answered - haven't read all the thread.

OP - can you tell me if interest is suspended if a graduate at times times when they are unable to repay the loan, or whether the loan continues to accrue interest throughout its life.

If it does continue to accrue interest then it seems to me that the poorest graduate workers will end up paying the highest amount for their university education, as they will be paying interest for longer than well off graduates who can repay their loans quickly.

Lecturers. Naturally.

The fees are and will continue to be paid upfront; the fee loan money goes straight from student finance to the university in two payments. The loan is repaid later and earns interest from day 1.

The maintenance loan may or may not cover the cost of living - it depends on which accommodation you choose, where you study and the type of social life you have. It's a bloody PITA though when Student Finance don't get their act together and the student doesn't receive the cash on time. Bank of mum and dad to the rescue again if they can afford it. Otherwise you're on your own, away from home with no money for food.

Cleo - interest isn't suspended no. So yes if you don't earn the required amount immediately you will end up paying more.

"So yes if you don't earn the required amount immediately you will end up paying more"

I don't want to live in a country where students leave university with massive debt.

That is a shit way to run your education system and your country.

The tuition fee rise isn't the only utterly shit thing this bunch of hooligans are doing to our (strategically essential) 3rd level system either.

Also WRT to living costs

The less than great uni up the road charges more than the weekly grant amount for residences, even the basic ones.

We had students at the uni whose aprents were quite able but chose to wander off on voyages of self discovery (OK am thinking of one eprson in particular but not uniquely that circs) and refused to pay a penny, student ended up ill from lack of food and we had to give him meals.

Great.

Quite right Cleo,

This proposal will incentivise graduates to seek out the highest paying jobs rather than the most interesting, most important, or most fulfilling jobs.

The more debt people have the less free they are, the more constrained their choices.

Classydiva - where on earth is your son earing £50k plus bonus as first job? Thought my son was doing OK after getting a first in engineering at a top university and going into investment banking.

Which university wants 3 A*'s next year and for what subject?

My eldest DD has just started Uni . We fall smack bang in the middle financially.. we aren't on benefits or officially in the 'poorest classes'.. so my DD doesn't get a Uni bursary, and all but £150 a term is a loan, not a grant. Her loan doesn't even cover her hall fees.. she has literally nothing to live on but what we can give her and she can earn. I'm struggling but sending her £30 a week to eat/pay fares etc:(

Several of her fellow students are from families with incomes fractionally lower.. but thus qualify for the Uni's own bursary, and have a larger grant proportion of their loans.

So as low-but-not-low-enough earners we miss out on any help and DD is the one who carries the burden.. as will her sister in 18m time.

Both of my daughters accept that they will have massive debt from going to higher education.. I accept that the system isn't the free education I received at Uni 20+ years ago, but it seems to me that as low average earners we are massively penalised for not being wealthy enough to avoid out children struggling, and not poor enough to get help.

Both my girls work P/T jobs and do their best to study and work but it isn't easy:(

Cameron is my local MP... he'd better hope I never bump into him... :D

The annoying thing to me is how people who go to uni & then choose not to do anything with it will get it for free despite having the same level of education.

If you choose to do further courses after uni they are pretty expensive but nobody says a word about them.

But it's not debt is it? Not really?

Yes it has to be paid back but it's not a like a credit card or a loan where it has to be paid back regardless of circumstance. It isn't taken in to account when applying for a mortgage or other loan. It isn't recorded with any of the credit reference agencies and it is written off at 55 (I believe). It comes straight from salary so the average graduate won't see the money anyway. It is debt but it isn't really comparable to debt in the way its being bandied about here.

Under the proposals, if a graduate earns thirty grand a year they'll end up paying back less than £70 a month. I don't understand all these "how am I meant to start a family / buy a house / etc when need to pay back 40K in debt". That simply isn't the case.

Personally I think we should have a graduate tax of a couple of percent on earnings - for all students regardless of family income.

I simply don't understand why we are gauging the financial needs of adults based on what their parents earn. My kids rate of income tax doesn't depend on what I earn?