I know I am am expecting a kicking but really I have to let this out

[Ormirian]

Open evening at college. It's an excellent college, one of the top in the UK. Loads of opportunities. We had a look around and then listened to a talk from the principal. At one point she was showing a presentation of the facilities and asking if there was anyone here interested in this or that subject area.

"Auto engineering, who's thinking of that when they leave school?"

About 7 hands went up. All male.

"Beauty skills, or hair-dressing. Anyone here interested in those areas?"

10 hands went up. All female.

I know there is nothing wrong with either of those professions but it would be so refreshing if that hasn't been the case.

Why did they feel that, though, wintersnow?

No female role models / nobody to 'model' non-traditional careers for them.

No encouragement to explore other options.

Lack of good careers information.

Crappy work experience in their local primary school.

etc etc

Same goes for boys, btw.

Whoneedssleepanyway, you say you wouldn't want a male stranger giving you a Brazilian. Would you also object to a male surgeon or gynaecologist poking about down there?

FWIW, I did arts subjects at school, and have worked in areas like marketing and publishing which tend to be slightly more female orientated, but that was because of my natural leanings, rather than being dissuaded because I thought some subjects were "male". I don't think the world of engineering is missing its shining light

I think that's a little bit patrionising tbh. Do you think they would be happier doing something other than their choice of subject or would this just make other people happier that traditional gender roles were being broken down?

It's not patronising, I don't think.

The choice isn't there. Not genuinely.

I think the problem is "why" girls don't think an engineering career would suit them, when they, probably don't have detailed knowledge of it.

My DD is at an academic all girls school, which is a science specialist school - lots of girls are very interested in science. I attended an evening recently, to hear about work experience, and the teacher presenting said that they are unable to find enough good quality science placements to meet demand aned, therefore, try to encourage as many science girls as possible to take engineering placements. The vast majority enjoy them & many go on to take engineering degrees, but very few would have considered it if they hadn't had the work experience.

I do think it's sad that there is still such a huge gender divide & certainly won't kick you Ormirian!

My DH teaches future mechanics in college and has at least 2 girls in each class

Re male beauty therapists - a lot of men have waxing, facials and other things these days. I honestly do not think that a male beauty therapist would find it hard to find clients. not least because people (men and women) often assume that a man in a predominantly female sector must be much better than the women, they must have a drive and ambition and vocation that the women don't have, to be doing it in the first place IYSWIM.

Strangely women in "men's" professions don't get the same reaction IME.

Thanks.

I expected a kicking for suggesting that perhaps not all choices were equal

That's great, florencerusty, but as it stands in the UK:

4% of engineering apprentices are female
22% of Physics A Level students are female
15 % of Engineering graduates are female

These are recent stats from Engineering UK. I've done quite a lot of work on getting girls into STEM subjects and related careers. Things are improving, but slowly, and we are behind most other EU countries in addressing the gender imbalance.

I agree that it is enormously sad that there is still such a huge gender divide.

Very many years ago I wrote my dissertation on gender segregation in the YTS (which shows you how long ago it was!) - I think things have changed a little, but really not much.

In a way I think it is something of a failure of feminism that middle class girls & boys have in the last 20 - 30 years become much more likely to move into non-gender typical jobs, but there has been as far as I am aware much less of a change for working class children / lower income jobs.

The worst thing, back in the day, was that statistically speaking as a girl if you went for a non-gender typical training, you were less likely to get a job through your training, more likely to be unemployed, and likely to have lower wages. So in that sense girls were being realistic in choosing the gender 'appropriate' options.

Orm - glad that your son has found a course in engineering he likes

I always get very pleased when i find another female engineer. It still is very unusual to find aeronautical engineers who are girls. And those that are are pretty tough - they have heard all the dozy comments.

I never thought about engineering as a career at school - I never really considered it until I fell into an aerospace company when I was in my teens, then studied for a degree whilst working. Mind you I have always been interested in science and the absolutes of maths etc.

DD is very similar - is ab absolute geek about planes.

Mind you i am very girly - love make up, always wear feminine clothes. But i would never have considered becoming a hairdresser - i cannot imagine anything worse. Bloody standing up all day touching people!

I'm totally hacked off about it.

Medicine is > 60% woman at medical school level. Overall the profession is becoming increasingly female.

Yet when I go anywhere and say I work at the hospital the immediate assumption is that I am a nurse.

I was out recently and the sales assistant APOLOGISED because I was having to buy something in blue for my goddaughter. I then explained that I was against gender stereotyping for small children and would probably have chosen the blue one anyway.

I do have a pink stethoscope though so amn't totally anti-pink!

Oh. I also know a number of female engineers - they oft. complain that the industry is so male dominated. Ditto the programmers.

Interestingly most of these woman went to all girl schools!

Maybe i should have said sod medicine and done chem eng which was my back up plan (although I suspect I would ahve struggled with the Maths).

I took DS2 to the dentist this afternoon. Without exception all the dentists I saw were male. All the dental nurses were female. All the receptionists were female. And I imagine their salaries and job prospects were also different. Why?

Don;t know. Lots of junior dentists are female (as hours are percieved to be more 'family friendly' than medicine).

The money is also better. I considered dentistry. My parents aggressively lobbied for medicine instead. My Father & Grandfather (both Engineers but different disciplines ) aggresively lobbied for me not to do engineering (in any form at all ) as they felt the industry was too sexist.

gasman, your point about all girls schools is very true. I went to an all girls school. It was a not-especially-academic comp (maybe 10% stayed on to 6th form), but it was definitely easier to take a non-traditional route than for my friends in mixed schools. When all those studying physics are girls, there's no chance of it being seen as a 'girls subject'

The only disadvantage was that there was no option, for example, to take further maths at A level, but tbh that was as much to do with the intake as anything I would say.

sorry, obv meant to say 'boys' subject'.

I've always secretly wanted to be a plumber, own business and hours.

But as a woman with a law degree/ qualifications and teaching qualifications I've never known how to tell my family it's the job for me.

Sad aren't I. I just was' academic' (and also loved working with my hands) and let everyone push me down the 'best' route.

I do think a lot of it comes down to knowledge of the relevant jobs and whether anyone has ever encouraged you in that direction.

How many girls will have been encouraged by their parents/friends/teachers to take apart an engine and see how it works, discuss car design etc? Whereas I know boys that have been very much encouraged that way.

How many boys will have been encouraged to experiment with beauty treatments and hair cutting? Whereas there are specific toys for girls that do this.

Rebeccaruby re my point on the brazillian no I wouldn't object to a male doctor looking down and have had male doctors look down there but if I had a choice e.g.when I have a smear if it is possible I prefer to have a woman doctor, I just do.......I am happy to have a man give me a massage etc but there are some things I would just prefer a woman to do.

whoneessleepanyway - I do find it depressing that women spend so much time and money on appearance, forever inventing some new pointless procedure that must be carried out in the interests of loking a certain way - to compete with other women, to attract men, to feel good about oneself. God help us if having fake stick-on nails makes us feel good. Creating a self-peretuating cycle of women having to 'look good', women entering low paid jobs thinking that waxing other women's fannies is glamourous.
The very idea that you want your pubic hair ripped out is bizarre to me.
Apart from preparing for a really special occasion, I find this obsession with ever increasing levels of 'beuty skills' shallow, vain, vacuous and very connected to why women are still in low paid jobs.

If you mend a broken car you have achieved something useful.
If you rip out oubic hair for a living you have siply pandered to someones vision of how they think they ought to look - nothing useful.

Blu if you make someone feel good about themselves I disagree that you have done nothing useful maybe not on the same level as performing open heart surgery or world peace negotiations but you have done something for someone.

Maybe it is shallow vain and vacuous to you but if it gives people confidence and makes them happy then where is the harm. In the same vein do you then disagree with any clothing other than what is functional?

Contrary to the opinion you seem to have formed of me I am not vain and vacuous, but I do like occasionally to get my nails done or have a facial. And so great someone can capitalise on that and make money out of that by doing that for me.

I work in a male dominated environment and I am all for women being treated equally on all scales but I don't see how wanting to look attractive should interfere with that.

sounds familiar, it wasn't swindon college was it op??