to wonder what's so heroic about being in the British army?

[poppylongstocking]

Both my brother in laws are in the army and spend 6 months at a time away from their wife & kids in a country we are under no direct threat from fighting a war which was started on dubious grounds. They are risking their lives, yes, but I don't see it as heroic, I see it as a bit stupid to be honest. I could understand the label 'hero' if we were under direct threat and having our homes bombed as in WW2, but it's very different nowadays, aibu?

Oh, and BTW - as an ex-serving military officer, with a DH who is still serving, I would actually agree with the point that not all members of the Armed Forces are heroes. Heroism is extraordinary, and by definition not all will be willing/able to be a 'hero'. People join the military for all sorts of reasons - being a hero is probably not the primary one for many people.

Having said that, there are some hugely courageous individuals currently serving - and some acts of bravery over the years that are rightly recognised as heroism.

There are plenty of other 'heroes' out there that also deserve the tabloids papers respect and admiration - the medics of Medicines San Frontieries for example do an utterly herioc task in some of the worst corners of our worls.

notyummy, in an ideal world would we not all wish there were no armed forces?

I accept of course that this isn't an ideal world. We have the forces and they aren't going away but that doesn't mean that I have to consider them heroes. If you want heroic, I suggest you look towards our Firemen and Firewomen... they fight selflessly for complete strangers, but do not kill.

herbie is it not evident why I'd be ashamed of DD? I neither want her to die unnecessarily nor to kill anyone.

Let's not forget that in many wars the those that the British soldiers-by-choice were killing were/are only children. The Falklands, for example, was a horrific example of such a war.

Not getting into the 'should we be in Afghan' arguement. Unless you have been there, unless you are a policy maker / decision taker then you cannot know why we are there , what we are doing or the reasons we are doing it. There are a million more issues than you might believe.

Not all soldiers are heroes, no. Some do heroic acts, some want to be heroes, some dont. Some fill a spot so that no-one else has to - maybe that is heroic. Some fight for what they believe in, some join for the camarardarie (sp?), some join to get away from home, some join for what they see as a good wage.

Help for Heroes was started with a specific aim - to help those returning from war with injuries that were going to effect them for the rest of their lives. The 'heroes' part was jumped on by The Sun and is now bandied about willy nilly. Most soldiers, sailors and airmen do not see themselves as heroes (and those that do are often the Walter Mitty types we work hard to eradicate) but I would hazard a guess that they could all name a 'hero' be it a colleague, superior, spouse, parent. I know a dog handler whose hero is his dog (and is well deserved!)

Heroes to me are people that put others before themselves - those that fight (in all meanings of the word) to make life better for others. I dont care if they do that with the written word, with military action or simply by being there when someone needs them.

valhalla - that was my point with reference to MSF. That said, I think your point is kind of mixed up with the issue of a 'just war'. If people are fighting a brutal and horrific regime (Nazis) are they carrying out a more heroic role? Is that acceptable? Or is the fact that they were conscripted what makes them potentially more heroic?

I do find it slightly sad that someones political viewpoint means that their children would not have a range of choices for their future available to them because they would fear angering their parents. I may have some hopes for my dds future, but as my parents did for me, i will support her in her choices (as long as they are legal!)

Whilst this country has an armed forces, we require men and women of good character to join them. That will always be someones son or daughter. To make them feel ashamed for their beliefs and their service is a cowardly act in itself, if at the same time you are prepared to accept the fact that we require armed forces.

I don't necessarily accept the fact that we require the forces. I accept that we have them and that this is highly unlikely to change.

I don't accept the idea that I should allow or condone my daughter to become cannon fodder, and if that goes hand in hand with limiting her choices, so be it. A soldier will indeed always be someone's son or daughter... but not mine if I have anything to do with it. I would neither value a coffin and a medal nor be proud of her killing another mother's son or daughter.

And coward? Yep, maybe, and I see no shame in that.

We will never agree, I don't feel that strongly about your opinions and the forces are not my priority when I'm in the polling booth, but FWIW I maintain that soldiers aren't heroes.

I really do hope all the pro forces people on here who consider them to be heroes are equally supportive of the London Firefighters' current battle.

Sorry herbie, maybe the above explains it more clearly. I don't want my daughter coming home with blood on her hands... and neither do I want her coming home in a wooden box.

Fair enough herbie, we differ on our support there too.

Just do me one favour - tell your Dad that this stranger considers him a hero. :)

Don't be silly, herbie. You'll do what you feel is right for your child and your conscience.

And I will do the same for me and mine.

Vallhala - you seem to forget all the other stuff the armed forces do for our country.

It is not just about war.

I hope that as you find those that serve in the Armed Forces so repugnant that you never find your self in a dangerous flood hoping to be rescued by a winchman on a helicopter. I also hope you never find yourself or your loved ones stuck in house fire whilst the "BRAVE" firefighters of this country are on strike.

When the bin men and other public service workers exercise their right strike next year or the year after, pissed off with their working conditions and the same pay freeze our Armed Forces are taking, our Armed Forces will be standing in for them no doubt as they have many times as they do not have the right to strike. You Valhalla - I hope wont be expecting to use our Armed Forces for these services. And lets just hope we dont have another foot and Mouth outbreak hey - because if you want to help your local farmers burn their own cattle instead of our Armed Forces - you go ahead.

They do alot of shit jobs that the average man or woman would not choose to do. Have a bit of fucking gratitude and pull your head out of your own arse.

And actually - I am also of the opinion that not all of our Armed Forces personnel are heroes. They are however NOT stupid though for what they do. They are brave to a certain degree imo to sign up to the job they do. They have no idea when they sign up what may or may not happen during their service career whether that be an "unjust" war, patrolling airports at times of high threats of terrorism, emptying bins or rescuing people from floods and other natural disasters.

Some of them are heroes tho - the ones that go the extra mile in their job to save or protect others - whether that be comrades or random strangers they have never met including the ones that think they are stupid.

Heroes is a term thats bounded around stupidly these days - footballers are referred to as heroes - and why?? Running around a pitch for 90 minutes for a serious amount ££££££.. I dont think so but to call our Armed Forces Stupid - makes me think the OP is bloody stupid.

Someone said earlier dont mention your opinion to your DS or BIL I would actually say please do. I would also like to say that IMO - starting this thread was a very selfish rude and offensive thing to do. More people than you realise are effected by this current war. Few actually agree with it but most of those at home worried sick about those they care about and find it damn right rude that you should call them stupid!

"From some of the comments here it would seem that we should have an army who when faced with being deployed into a situation, should huddle together and decide whether they are going to go or not. If they decide they do not agree with the Government they shoud say 'sorry don't fancy this one'. Our military would then be worthy of the high morale ground the OP holds - and our country would be where exactly? "

This is a good point and it is really down to the nitty-gritty, isn't it? I am one of those you are referring to because I feel an individual must always act on his/her conscience but I entirley see your point. How is this supposed to work in practice? It doesn't.

For this reason, I would never join a professional army myself where I would be deployed according to the will/decision of others in a fight I may not agree with. In this kind of dilemma, I would do as my conscience tells me to do. I see the huge inner conflict between conscience - accepting discipline in service of some kind of higher good (as in military defence of your country and the countr's interest). Not every soldier is going to go through huge inner turmoil with this kind of thing, but I know I would which is why I would not select this path. I would fight though, if conscripted or if not conscripted in a specific crisis, if I saw a direct threat, to defend my family/country but I would not join the army as a regular professional soldier personally.

Some very good points on this thread. I distance myself entirely from comments about people having to be stupid.

Our armed forces are rightly envied the world over. They are highly trained, professional people.

They do many good things, peacekeeping and saving lives, as MummyMyFanwy has mentioned. I think we should be proud of them.

Unfortunately, they have been abused by successive governments. Sent unprepared into conflicts we have no business being involved in.

Other than WW2, I really cannot think of any other recent military conflict that can justify the killing of our young men and women and those of our 'enemies'.

Not every member of the armed forces is a heroic, some even go on to be criminals. However the greater proportion of heroes come from the armed forces.

My friend who lost his life in afghanistan was a hero and the thought of telling his wife (also serving) that he wasn't a hero makes me sick.

Its not all about picking up a gun and killing someone, the army achieves a huge amount and picks up the slack within this country when others decided to strike etc. In Afghanistan for example they have been training locals to look after their own country - they have been training police forces as well as fighting the Taliban.

It seems to be forgotten that we are a global community now and that we aren't the only country out there hoping to improve situations. Regardless of how you feel about it we would do more damage to leave than by staying and you can blame the previous government for that.

There has been comment about the young who join the army being either from army families or from care. The army is a family to these people not just a way of life.

They are far braver than most of the posters here, I honestly can't believe that anyone believes we could survive as a country without an army, get real! Yes great idea, lets not have any weapons, no army and see what the hell happens. I think you might find the results might not be the utopia you are all dreaming of. We don't live in a world peace situation, even the pope has his own army.

There is so much I want to say to some of you, some of the comments on this thread are disgusting and quite frankly stupid, look at yourselves before you call those in the forces stupid. They might not all be heroes but by god they are far braver than some of the poorly thought out comments I have seen here.

"Valhalla - I hope wont be expecting to use our Armed Forces for these services. And lets just hope we dont have another foot and Mouth outbreak hey - because if you want to help your local farmers burn their own cattle instead of our Armed Forces - you go ahead."

A great example of how we underestimate each other on here.

Some of my posts elsewhere on MN will explain why I wouldn't dream of helping any fucker do that.

@ herbie - WRT my daughter and learning to fly helis... her role model is my friend, who at 34 years of age and having had some serious distress in her personal life and worked previously in an unconnected occupation, managed with no assistance from or employment in the forces to gain her commercial heli pilot license earlier this year. She now lives in NZ, where she is having a whale of a time.

[shaking head] this is a very sad thread indeed.

Could I please suggest (hoping this isn't against MN rules - sorry if it is!) that all those who do support our troops check out the following:

help for heroes

support our soldiers

operation shoe box

YANBU

There's a lot of handwringing here despite the fact that:

1)The Iraq war was illegal and a colossal mistake. The Iraqi civillians killed in that war had just as much right to exist as everyone sitting here. Ditto the civillians killed in Afghanistan.

2)British generals are already declaring the Afghan war unwinnable. Very soon, the involved parties will stike some kind of deal that is beneficial to all, especially Western business interests.

I am very, very sorry for all those killed or injured in the Armed Forces. I think it is a terrible waste of life and IMO, the most honourable thing we can do is face up to that, to prevent it happening again.

I'd like to add Combat Stress to beijingaling's list www.combatstress.org.uk/pages/donate_now.html

LtEveDallas, I presume at least part of your comment was addressed to me:
"Not getting into the 'should we be in Afghan' arguement. Unless you have been there, unless you are a policy maker / decision taker then you cannot know why we are there , what we are doing or the reasons we are doing it. There are a million more issues than you might believe."

This reads like "I know the truth and you're an ignorant idiot and I'm far too clever / world-weary to waste effort telling you the truth". It's not argument, it's mere assertion. I'm going to assert right back at you:

• I do not need to have been to Afghanistan or to be a policy-maker to know why we are there, what we are doing, or the reasons we are doing it. If personal or policy-making experience were a prerequisite for valid decision-making, then our democracy might as well shut up shop now. I am not prepared to accept any assertion that I am obliged to just blindly support the spending of my tax money on keeping the armed forces in Afghanistan, particularly when by doing so, it's actually making it more likely that me + my family will be at risk, not less.
• I'm sure there are lots of reasons for our being there. Not one of them is valid. Specific policy objectives such as protecting national security or fighting the so-called war on drugs are actually made worse, not better, by the presence of British armed forces.

Separately, re MummyMyfanwy's comment that we ought to be grateful to the armed forces because they do dangerous and shit jobs such as search-and-rescue, fire service cover, and disposal of animal cadavers. These are all good and noble things to do, but they don't require armed forces. Armed forces are supposed to be there to deal with existential threats to the nation, not provide some kind of hyper-expensive infrastructure insurance service (squaddies may be paid badly, but the armed services as a whole are incredibly expensive, even excluding nuclear strike capabilities).

gothannegeddes and yet the majority of civilians in Afghan continue to support our forces and want them there.

It's not simply about 'winning a war' it's about supporting and helping the people there and training the Afghani armed forces and police so they can start to take care of themselves.

Slhilly/Dallas - you are both just asserting things now - would either of you like to reference some sources?

"There's a lot of handwringing here "

What do you mean Goth (not central I know but I don't understand you!)