to think it was awful to chain the elephant up during labour?

[ladyfirenze]

I've just watched the elephant in 'the zoo' have her first calf. she was tightly chained by her right front leg and left back leg. While she laboured she repeatedly pulled hard on both chained legs, and seemed distressed by this. When the baby came she was in danger of trampling it because she couldn't move away from the area. AIBU or is this yet another birth situation that is unneccasarily being messed with......

Yes, I thought that too :(
She looked so sad, but maybe that was just a normal elephant expression?

I am very glad, however, that I won't ever have to give birth to a 200 lb + baby.

do you know i was sat here thinking the same thing....it wasnt pleasant. I noticed they chained them up at night too. They also did shows with the elephants which makes me feel uncomfortable - not tricks as such but even so. Much prefer Animal Park...

You'd have thought that having a load of keepers come charging in and pushing her away from the baby the minute she'd given birth would increase the risk of her not bonding with the baby and trying to hurt it later on.

Yes, I thought that & am no animal libber. Maybe there is a good reason but I couldn't think of one, given that's obviously that's not would happen in the wild (just the danger of lurking lions!). It looked quite distressing.

The elephant also nearly stood on her calf, but that was due to the keepers rushing in and panicking her.

Right, so it's not just me. Petition anyone??

Why not email ZSL and ask them why they had the elephant chained up? Maybe it was because they needed the keepers there in case of an emergency but had to keep her under control in case she panicked and killed one of the keepers? It's not especially unusual for animals to try and 'bolt' when they give birth for the first time.

I agree though, on the face of it, it does seem awful.

As for the komodo dragons, I doubt they cared less about keepers being there at the mating. I regularly peer at my snakes during mating, it doesn't disturb them at all. Lots of animals have far more intervention during matings in captivity, including horses and dogs.

They said it was as she was a first time mother and they didn't know how she'd be with the baby and could attack it. I'm guessing that sometimes happens even in the wild but is perhaps more likely in captivity due to lower breeding rates. Therefore the elephants don't get to see other new mums with their babies as much and don't get socialised in how to behave towards their baby.

Is there a YT clip or something (i missed it)

What environment was the elephant in?

I saw it and was equally horrified. Whatever the reasons for it it is wrong because in the wild it is not neccessary. If they feel it is necessary now then something is very wrong :(

Jareth, the elephant was in a large barn. It will probably be on itv player at some point.

'if they feel it is necessary now then something is very wrong' excellent point well made!

I'm no animal libber either - but the different ways people mess with birth really bugs me. Obviously I know it's the right thing to do in some circumstances, but feel we may have lost the plot a little bit here.

Can an elephant look sad?

I thought this was another thread about fat people. Fat criminals.

me too BoF

midori - you are right. Unfortunately animals giving birth can be extremely dangerous. If an intervention had been necessary it might not have been safe for the keepers to approach her without her being chained.

My Dad was badly injured and almost killed by a cow who attacked him shortly after giving birth. An elephant would certainly be lethal when protecting its calf.

My first reaction would be to assume that the trained zoo keepers would be knowledgeable on the subject of when to tether an animal. I might do some google searching to find out what the experts think.

\link{http://www.biaza.org.uk/resources/library/images/Combined%20final%20document.pdf\biaza'sguidelines are here} - it's very long.....

thesecondcoming I clicked on this thread to point out exactly that! dh has been fulminating about how short our memories are.

found the bit on use of chains -

"Use of chains during births:

In a situation where a calf is born to a
nulliparous cow, one that has not previously witnessed a birth to another cow,
one that has a history of aggression towards her calves or dystocia, or if it
known in advance that the calf is undersized or there are any other health
concerns, it might be a good idea to plan to remove the calf immediately after
birth for a rapid clinical examination and drying off, so it can stand without
slipping as soon as possible, and any necessary treatment. If the calves are
removed, it should occur within sight, sound and smell of the cow but safely
out of her reach. Staff should all be familiar to the cow and kept to an absolute
minimum. They should work as carefully, quietly and quickly as possible to
ensure early return to the cow and to allow bonding to begin at once.

This management can only be achieved without compromising the safety of
the keeping staff if the cow is adequately restrained. Chains (of varying
number and attachment) make this possible. If a cow is made familiar with
their use in the months preceding a birth, they do not appear to produce any
additional stress at the time of parturition. They can be kept under no tension,
unless the cow moves to the extremity of their length, and winched tighter
only if necessary to assist with the separation of a neonatal calf, should the
cow become aggressive. A recent birth at Twycross Zoo (2009) would have
resulted in a very badly injured calf without the mother being in chains (loose
then tightened) enabling the removal of the calf (N. Masters pers. comm.).

The decision to use chains should not be taken lightly as evidence continues to
be gathered that restraint free births are less stressful and have a higher
success rate than those chained. Each case is different and a cow with an
apparently healthy gestation, in the right social environment, with birthing
experience (hers or others in the group) and housing should be left to get on
with parturition without restraint. See also the discussion on infanticide
below."

The days of experts aren't over then. Not yet.

no - but just read the bit on infanticide a bit further down and it would appear expert opinion is divided.

Apparently in the wild mothers dig with the front feet to help them stand - obviously this can't be done on concrete.

Isn't it both for the safety of the baby and also of the vets/keepers? I think it is very difficult to predict how an animal will behave during/immediately after a birth and if the animal is unpredictable it could attack the baby or keepers, particularly if anything went wrong and the vets needed to urgently intervene to save the lives of both mother and baby? I'm just supposing here, but think how frightening it could be with a human birth where something was wrong, you were tired, in pain etc and how irrational/frightened/upset even a human mother can be... It's not like it can be explained to an animal or even something the size of an elephant could be tranquillised safely. I expect it's a sort of lesser of two evils situation in which the safety of both animals of a protected but large and potentially dangerous species just about outweighs any reservations about using chains, iyswim.

I wonder if they do this with other animals, like lions or tigers?

Honestly the things you end up thinking about after a quick nose through the Aibu threads on here are amazing