We ENGLISH are we too respectful of the rich?

[GabbyLoggon]

And too critical of the poor? (I suspect we are, or I would not be asking the question, ok)

Is it because money gives power; and the rich have money?

Or do we clobber the poor because they have little money and little power?

I suppose it goes back to Victorian times.

We need rich people in the country, they pay for the rest of us. Dislike for the wealthy tends to be a result of jealousy.

Nope, could be a dislike of being ripped off e.g. the bank bailout, could be a desire for a fairer country, could be a dislike of the sort of sharp practice that means the current government is inviting drinks and processed food manufacturers to decide public health policy, could be dislike of inflated house prices... could be lots of things.

You could argue that businessmen like Pholip Green have provided jobs in Britain but the taxpayer has educated, housed and mobilised his workforce. He has used this country's resources, put in place and paid for by ordinary working people, to make himself a fortune.

I don't hate the rich, but I believe you should respect people because they are people, not because they have been lucky enough to make some money.

"yes, dear, the clue is in the word 'tax'."

You cant 'avoid' council tax.

You can defraud it by claiming the single persons discount when really you are living with a partner. Happens all the time, but its not the rich doing it.

More benefits are left unclaimed than fraudulently claimed.

"but the taxpayer has educated, housed and mobilised his workforce"

15 years ago you could say that.

Nowdays - globalisation means there are a billion chinese who will do it with more effort and for less money.

TBH - the only thing we have in the UK right now that the developing world dont is geography. The market is here.

I trust you are all supporting the immigration cap?

As many as four out of five low paid workers without children (1.2million households) miss out on tax credits worth at least £38 per week - a total of £1.9 billion
as many as half of all working households entitled to housing benefit (worth an average £37.60 per week) do not claim it ? that?s up to half a million households.

Other benefits showing signs of significant under-claiming include council tax benefit and pension credit. Up to three million households are missing out on an average £13 a week in council tax benefit, while as many as 1.7 million pensioners are missing out on an average of £31 a week in pension credit.

Right on CommanderDrool!
But these people are not here to learn facts! No! Facts would only get in the way of their desperate need to demonise the poor (most of whom are working)..

Philip Green has been on Dispatches twice in the last few weeks. First it was revealed that a dividend paid from Arcadia Grp was paid to his wife, a Monaco resident, through a holding company, (I believe the dividend was in the region of 1.8 million) and as a result not a penny was paid in UK tax.

The next time implicated two Arcadia Group companies, BHS and New Look, in a supply chain where workers were illegally paid below minimum wage and exposed to dangerous conditions in order to maximise profits (a pair of trousers cost just 80p to produce and sold for £6). This took place in the UK.

I do not hate all rich people, but anyone, rich or poor, who makes money by exploiting others illegally should not be able to take advantage of any channel, legal or not, which enables them to avoid contributing to a society they are happy to cheat.

I'm not English though, so perhaps this is irrelevant to this thread ?

I disagree entirely with the "progressive" tax scheme (like stratified income tax rates) and think we need flat tax to promote wealth creation, consumption etc.

Philip Green has paid a hideous amount in tax and created thousands of jobs - he should be revered not criticised. I am personally behind anyone smart enough to avoid tax, it isn't that hard to do to an extent and I disagree with the basic principles of the tax system and did not vote for the past governments who put the stealth taxes and 50% income tax into action so don't feel a tinge of guilt for doing everything possible to pay less.

happiestblonde didn't you read my post? He DID NOT pay tax. He was involved in a supply chain which employed workers at an ILLEGAL minimum wage of £2.50. How exactly does that make him an asset to the British Economy?

Tax avoidance by the very wealthy contributes to the very stratified tax system you claim to hate- if the extremely wealthy avoid paying their fair share of tax, it falls to the merely wealthy to pick up the bill. Not enough tax can be squeezed from the poor to make up for the amount of money being lost to the economy, so the tax burden on higher earners has to increase.

I honestly can't believe you can seriously support a wealthy man cheating the tax system, when it means that you yourself will be taxed more heavily.

I noticed you have cited for support the 'documentary' 'Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story'- it's maker, Martin Durkin, was also responsible for 'The Great Global Warming Swindle'- which will hopefully give you some idea how reliable the 'facts' contained within his documentaries are, and what a one-sided and grossly simplified view this was of economics.

Stealth taxes? Is that like the Tories latest think tank wanting to put VAT on everything that doesn't currently have it?

Why is it that you libertarians are so in favour of minimal tax for the rich, but maximun (relative) tax for the poor?

There was a programme on channel 4 about illegal sweatshops in leicester ..paying 2.50 an hour ..making clothes for Phillip Greens Arcadia Group ..so no we don't need more like him

I've always believed that it was the middle class to contribute to the highest rate of taxes. At least that's what happens here in Italy. Actually, it is people who are not self employed who pay the highest amount of taxes here, as they can't evade them.

And as I said, it is not as if private companies always exemplify the most virtuous form of capitalism.

And I'd rather pay my fair share of taxes than moving to bloody Monaco.

And I have no reason whatsoever to be jealous of wealthy people.

I'm Scottish so perhaps I can't participate in this topic.

Tax avoidance is not just something done by the super rich.
What about all those: plumbers, electricians, taxi drivers, decorators etc that demand to be paid in cash - you think they're declaring the money?

I think we are right to respect the rich who make the world a better place, who trade ethically,source products ethically, pay a decent wage to employees,pay all their taxes but i have absolutely no respect for the likes of Philip Green .

omnia - it's this notion of 'fair share' that I disagree with. Why is 40% of my salary paying my 'fair share' when someone else is only paying 20% of theirs? Imagine if someoen made the case for this with regard to child care within a relationship!?! Especially when you consider how lots of the 'rich' take the burden of their children off the state (private education) or NHS (private healthcare) while at the same time paying a great deal more of their EARNT salary towards them.

Sorry to keep pushing same book but please read Robert Nozick's "Anarcy State and Utopia" - it was part of my undergrad PPE degree and essentially makes the valid point that as society is no longer consent based (flawed democracy etc)and if you are taxed at 20% that means that 1 in 5 hours you work is for free - if you have not consented to this it is essentially forced labour.

Nancy - great point.

With reference to Phillip Green - I didn;t watch the program but wasn't he paying people on student visas who had NO RIGHT to work here anyway and were therefore cheating the system themselves? I don't want to make this about immigration/rights to work as I am a libertarian and believe in a free market regardless of nationality if it benefits the economy, but they are as much at fault as he is.

Northernrock - I believe in a transparent, open tax system with a flat rate of income tax; I cannot imagine anything 'fairer' than everyone paying the same percentage of whatever it is they earn and then being given the freedom to do as they like with the rest. Please do not get me started on inheritance tax - that is a blatent tax on autonomous choice and liberty for if you choose to spend your post-tax income you will be taxed for VAT (currently 17.5 soon to be 20%) yet if you choose to save and give your children/friends/benefactors the money in your will then the tax is 40%. Disgusting really.

wow public sector take note - Dave might do you a similar favour (yeah right)

"Especially when you consider how lots of the 'rich' take the burden of their children off the state (private education) or NHS (private healthcare)"

Yes using staff educated and trained by the state, paid for by the taxpayer. Using resources paid for by working people, to feather their own beds. Private healthcare just takes staff and resources away from the NHS. Private education just causes massive inequalities in terms of access to higher education.
The fact is the 'super rich' in this country enjoy hthe luxury of knowing that a low paid public sector worker will scrape them off the road and put them back together. And yet they choose not to pay tax in this country. That is sheer greed.

And yes many rich people have worked hard to get where they are. But lots of lower income people work hard. Some people don't even get paid for ithe hard work they do.

try again

I only respect the rich if they are worthy of respect. I treat everyone the same-rich or poor-politely.

Happiest - students can work for a set number of hours per week. If he was employing them for more than that then HE was doing it illegally. He should pay the penalty (but we all know he won't).

Shame on him - he makes me ashamed to be british.

I've worked in public (whitehall) and private sectors - I was actually shocked at the waste and carrying of shite working

Yeah I worked in Whitehall, agree with the waste. Sorry re student workers - as I said i did not watch program - but they are as to blame as he is for both are breaking the law if they work over their allowed hours and he pays beneath MW.

I don't think people should be judged according to their tax bracket; inverse snobbery is IMHO more common these days. When I was at uni (Exeter), myself and a couple of others who worked in a restaurant part time to fund our lives received so much abuse from 'locals' about Daddy buying us ponies etc - all total bollocks, if that were true why would we be working for minimum wage.... yet because we were at the university the abuse was pretty full on. Just as bad as looking down on people for being 'poor'.