I've just had the worst argument I've ever had with my mother - who is being unreasonable?

[Fedupwithmymother]

My mother, who is long-widowed, lives quite close to us. She has no friends at all in the whole world. The other two relatives that she has are an aunt and a cousin. She has no contact with the aunt and some sporadic contact with the cousin, who lives 200 miles away. She has had long term issues with mental health - largely depression but severe enough to require psychiatric help.

I am an only child and my mother feels that she has a right to pass comment about every area of my life. Those comments are usually negative and usually expressed either to my husband, my children or both.

These negative comments range from the mild such as finding some reason to dislike my house, television, car etc to the frankly emotionally harmful.

So for instance she will tell DD1 that I don't love her (DD1) as much as I love DD2. She will genuinely say this in front of them. I have no idea why she says this - it's not remotely true and it's incredibly hurtful to me - but imagine the sort of problems this can cause a child? I've already experienced DD1 screaming at me that I don't love her as much as DD2 and I bloody well know where that little gem has come from.

It all came to a head this weekend. We had a friend come to stay. We had a family outing (minus granny but plus a family friend) which was cut short because Granny insisted that DD1 go around to watch some Formula One race thing. DD1 tried to explain that she didn't want to go, but relented. I heard DD1's end of the phone conversation and it sounded like the other end was pure emotional blackmail. We took DD1 around to her Granny's house.

DD1 knew that she had to be back at our house in time for dinner, as we were being joined by the family friend plus two others. I was trying to cook and entertain but had to drop everything to go and pick DD1 up, and DD1 wasn't ready as Granny had suggested making a birthday card for one of DD1's relatives. The birthday card-making suggestion happened exactly 3 minutes before I was due to collect DD1.

DD1 and her Granny tried to make me wait for them but I just couldn't. I had lots of food on the go. I'd already had to be flexible in terms of taking DD1 around and picking her up when that simply wasn't in the plan for the day. So her Granny agreed to bring DD1 back to our house whilst I went back home to attend to the food.

But then Granny didn't bring DD1 back! I waited until just before serving up and called and asked where DD1 was. I was told that 'She'd already eaten' (at Granny's) that 'She might as well stay with me because you don't seem to like her very much' and to cap it all 'You're only bothered about entertaining your boyfriend' angry] . I have no boyfriend btw. I have a long-standing husband. The boyfriend she was referring to was the family friend. But she said all this to me on the telephone while DD1 was IN THE ROOM LISTENING.

I just went around and collected DD1 myself, shouted at my mother that she was emotionally abusive and ran.

I haven't shouted at my mother for around 30 years. I've long concluded that the way of dealing with her was just not to engage. I am furious with myself for losing my temper but so much more furious with my mother for her behaviour.

Who is being unreasonable? Me? Her? Or both? And what do I do now?

[phipps]

Your mother sounds like mine. Jealous. YANBU.

[Animation]

Has she ever had any therapy?

[MakingAMess]

so feel for you OP. my mother had exactly the same problems with her mother (my grandmother). my grandmother is an only child; my mother is an only child; i am an only child...

my grandmother told me all sorts of tales about my mother - which i believed. that she was a paranoid schizophrenic; that she should never have had children; that she did not deserve to be a mother. my mother suffered from depression and still does. she would be the first to admit that she found parenting me hard. but my grandmother fed me lies about my mother and manipulated me, and, to cut a very long story short, i ended up suffering from an eating disorder, which very nearly killed me. i was vulnerable and impressionable and my grandmother preyed on that to get back at her own daughter. and in the process i nearly died.

my mother cut off all contact with her mother over 20 years ago when she finally realised what the cycle of abuse and manipulation was causing.

i know it sounds drastic, but maybe that is something you HAVE to consider for the sake of your daughter.

she is POISONING her mind. please take this fact very seriously and understand what it might potentially mean for her long-term health.

[Fedupwithmymother]

From my recollection she spent a lot of time with a psychiatrist in the 80s, and saw someone else whom I believed to be another psychiatrist around the mid 90s but no-one since.

[Animation]

Psychiatrists in the main prescribe medication. It's the counsellors, psychotherapists or psychologists that usually do the therapy. I suspect that she's resistant to doing any real work on herself - towards becoming a better person and having good relationships.

[Dolanette]

My mother tries to create trouble between my siblings and I. If your DCs old enough could you try explain mental illness to them??

[Tolalola]

Poor you. Your mother sounds extremely difficult, to say the least.

I have to say though, I'm quite alarmed by the things she's saying to your DD - this type of thing is really insidious and could properly screw up you relationship with your DD and your DDs relationship with other people, later on down the line.

If your children are old enough, I think you should have quite a frank discussion with them and address the things that your mother has been saying openly. Tell them straight out that her assertions aren't true and explain that she has some serious problems. If you ignore what she's said and pretend it never happened, it could come back and bite you later.

[grannieonabike]

I'd be careful when talking about mental illness with children, unless you're really sure of your facts. Their first thought might be 'Do I have it too?' and it could make them feel strange about their granny.

Plus she hasn't been diagnosed with anything, has she?

[grannieonabike]

Yes, not saying you should ignore the incident. It will definitely need unpacking in some way, as the child overheard the conversation.

[Animation]

I guess you tell the kids how it is - that Granny says mean things, and to take no noice.

[onceamai]

How old are dds. Are they old enough to understand concept of mental illness? If so need to explain the facts to them and that what your mother says isn't meant in the way it comes across. They need lots of reassurance. Think they have to stop being allowed to see her on their own. You need a thicker skin about her comments - yes they are hurtful but that's why she had no friends. You aren't her friend you are her daugher and only child. It's tough (and I'm an only child with a difficult mother) but you have to disengage emotionally and make sure your mother has the care she needs to stay safe and healthy. It's sad there's no one else to lean on to help with her but then there's noone else to argue about how she shoudl be cared for either.

YANBU and good luck. You and yours are fine - she's a hurtful, spiteful old bag, but you're all she's got and she'll have to lump the way you do it or like it.

[theQuibbler]

I think you could do with some therapy to help you properly disengage from your mother.

It's very hard to do - she's spent your whole life conditioning you to do what she wants and expects - so it's not as easy as just saying walk away.

The fact that you're not shielding your daughters from her toxicity (not blaming you at all, btw) is not good, and it is going to make you conflicted, and guilty and angry.

If your daughter didn't want to go round to her grandmothers, then why did she end up there? She tried to say no, but you colluded in making her go and gave in to the emotional blackmail - the card stuff? That's just vicious game playing, but you weren't able to challenge her and "win".

She's old and mentally ill. There's not much you can do to change her at this stage, but there's a lot you can do to change how you respond to her. Have you had therapy? It could liberate you.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Fedup
Please please do one thing for me

Stop blaming yourself!

You are not complicit in anything. You are so used to your mum being a selfish manipulative user that for you it has become a sort of normality. It takes a huge amount of strength and courage to break out of the role that your mum taught you to play from your childhood. In doing so you have shown how different you are from her, you have self awareness and you are prepared to put your DC's welfare before your own, your mother manages neither of these things.

Stop worrying about protecting your mother's feelings because she doesn't really give a shit about your feelings or those of your DC's.

[ENormaSnob]

Yanbu

your loyalty should be with your dds and your mother is abusing them. Put them first.

[Fedupwithmymother]

The therapy idea is a good one. It would help me make some sense of it all.

As to whether or not my mother has been diagnosed with anything, she was diagnosed with depression some time in the sixties and that is the condition she has been treated for.

Thank you for explaining the distinction between psychiatrists and therapists. As you say, she has not to my knowledge sought any therapy

The loving DD2 more thing has not just been said once. It has been said time and time again. If I buy new curtains for DD2's bedroom it is held out as an instance of my favouring DD2. This is in spite of DD1 having the larger room that is properly done up. It absolutely destroys me every time I hear the accusation so I have no idea what it does to DD1.

One thing DH has told me is that after refusing to discuss the issue of my 'favouritism', he did tackle my mother about her saying that I had a boyfriend in front of DD1. She said 'I can say what I like to my own daughter'

Thank you so much for listening all of you. Thank you

[Unwind]

Whether or not you decide to limit contact with her yourself - I think you have an obligation to protect your children, and that means not leaving them alone with her, until they are old enough to understand the malice of her insinuations. You can't really help or change your mother. You can make things better for yourself and your children.

My mother is very like yours. She behaves toward my sister in the way your mother has been treating you. She has treated me very well for the past few years, because I realised that I could not change her, and that she is poisonous. I do not tolerate her bad behaviour, she knows that I would not hesitate to cut ties with her if she went back to her old tricks. I have never allowed her to be alone with my DD.

[fairycake123]

Cut her off, cut her off, cut her off.

I speak as someone with a long-standing, severe and incurable mental illness when I say sorry, but fuck her depression: it's no excuse.

And you know what? Even if her behaviour WAS exclusively caused by her depression, so what? Whatever is causing it, her behaviour is causing massive harm to you and your children as individuals and to your family unit, and that is the key issue here. I know that my behaviour in the past has been unspeakably bad, and incredibly destructive to the people around me. Sometimes, it still is - but I know that I cannot point to my diagnosis and use it to hide behind. It makes no fucking difference: maybe my mental illness is the reason I'm sometimes a nightmare, maybe it isn't; but ultimately it is irrelevant, because whatever the cause, the effect on the people around me is the same, and as an adult I have to take responsibility for that.

And even if I was so incapacitated by my mental illness that I was incapable of taking responsibility or changing, I sincerely hope that my family members WOULD cut me off if my behaviour was as disgusting as your mother's - because I love them.

Yes, she's friendless and lonely - hmmm, I wonder why?! The bottom line is that it's not your problem. I do know how heartless that sounds, but it's what I believe and I make no apologies for it. Sometimes you have to protect yourself from people, irrespective of how unhappy THEY are, and personally I think that this is one of those situations. Think about the misery and turmoil it's bringing to you and your family to maintain a relationship with her. Then think about how much benefit she's getting from it (sorry, but fuck all, by the sounds of it). I know it sounds brutal but to my mind it's a pretty simple cost-benefit analysis: the overall amount of happiness would be vastly increased if there was no contact between you. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[MsKalo]

My first thought is please do not let her near your children anymore as she is damaging them, she really is. Tell her she must seek help and she cannot see the children until she learns to act in a way that is non-toxic. Please don't expose them to her anymore and I sorry you have had to deal with this horrible situation

[mamas12]

she is of course and please keep your dd away from her.
It seems that she is your buffer between you and her,
Be kind to both of you and take that away rtight now and free her up from having to please granny.
Stick up for her and keep nher with you.

Good luck

[springlamb]

If you are now determined to change things, I would also say that you need to talk to your dh and ask for his absolute total support in this. He should not discuss you or your girls with your mother. Your mother can and will use these conversations against you to undermine you. You will begin to mistrust your dh. Is this what he wants?
He may not 100% agree with what you decide but this is your mother, you lived through the history.
Agree that your girls should have no unsupervised contact with your mother for foreseeable future at least. Not even phone calls.
You need to simply say 'No, the way things are between us is upsetting me too much at the moment so whilst I am thinking about the future I won't be seeing you' and give yourself some space to think/talk about what you want to do.

[Fedupwithmymother]

Thank you all again

I'll take on board all the advice. You've all really helped me. I'm working through the website and will do something about getting some therapy for me at least, and possibly the others too.

We've agreed (me and DH) that I have to set out ground rules if she is going to see the girls in future. We are literally the only people she ever sees.

I've just had a long chat with DD1, who insists she knows she is loved and treasured - equally to DD2. She says she understands that. I'm going repeat that message endlessly

Thank you

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

Gosh, you poor thing. I agree with everyone else, and I'm really glad you're seeking some therapy. Do look at the Stately Homes thread if you haven't had a chance already.

You sound like a wonderful loving mum, by the way, and your girls are lucky to have you fighting their corner.

[ChippingIn]

You are doing all of the right things.

Your DH did well in his conversation with her as well. I think he should talk to her and say the kind of things he said - it reinforces that it is her behaviour and not yours that is at fault.

If it was me, I wouldn't be able to cut contact entirely, but I wouldn't allow her any unsupervised time with either DD and would limit the time spent with her.

I'm glad you are handling this 'as a family' - good luck x

[differentnameforthis]

It absolutely destroys me every time I hear the accusation so I have no idea what it does to DD1