I've just had the worst argument I've ever had with my mother - who is being unreasonable?

[Fedupwithmymother]

My mother, who is long-widowed, lives quite close to us. She has no friends at all in the whole world. The other two relatives that she has are an aunt and a cousin. She has no contact with the aunt and some sporadic contact with the cousin, who lives 200 miles away. She has had long term issues with mental health - largely depression but severe enough to require psychiatric help.

I am an only child and my mother feels that she has a right to pass comment about every area of my life. Those comments are usually negative and usually expressed either to my husband, my children or both.

These negative comments range from the mild such as finding some reason to dislike my house, television, car etc to the frankly emotionally harmful.

So for instance she will tell DD1 that I don't love her (DD1) as much as I love DD2. She will genuinely say this in front of them. I have no idea why she says this - it's not remotely true and it's incredibly hurtful to me - but imagine the sort of problems this can cause a child? I've already experienced DD1 screaming at me that I don't love her as much as DD2 and I bloody well know where that little gem has come from.

It all came to a head this weekend. We had a friend come to stay. We had a family outing (minus granny but plus a family friend) which was cut short because Granny insisted that DD1 go around to watch some Formula One race thing. DD1 tried to explain that she didn't want to go, but relented. I heard DD1's end of the phone conversation and it sounded like the other end was pure emotional blackmail. We took DD1 around to her Granny's house.

DD1 knew that she had to be back at our house in time for dinner, as we were being joined by the family friend plus two others. I was trying to cook and entertain but had to drop everything to go and pick DD1 up, and DD1 wasn't ready as Granny had suggested making a birthday card for one of DD1's relatives. The birthday card-making suggestion happened exactly 3 minutes before I was due to collect DD1.

DD1 and her Granny tried to make me wait for them but I just couldn't. I had lots of food on the go. I'd already had to be flexible in terms of taking DD1 around and picking her up when that simply wasn't in the plan for the day. So her Granny agreed to bring DD1 back to our house whilst I went back home to attend to the food.

But then Granny didn't bring DD1 back! I waited until just before serving up and called and asked where DD1 was. I was told that 'She'd already eaten' (at Granny's) that 'She might as well stay with me because you don't seem to like her very much' and to cap it all 'You're only bothered about entertaining your boyfriend' angry] . I have no boyfriend btw. I have a long-standing husband. The boyfriend she was referring to was the family friend. But she said all this to me on the telephone while DD1 was IN THE ROOM LISTENING.

I just went around and collected DD1 myself, shouted at my mother that she was emotionally abusive and ran.

I haven't shouted at my mother for around 30 years. I've long concluded that the way of dealing with her was just not to engage. I am furious with myself for losing my temper but so much more furious with my mother for her behaviour.

Who is being unreasonable? Me? Her? Or both? And what do I do now?

[BitOfFun]

How horribly sad. You do need to limit her contact with your children and ram home how unacceptable her comments are.

[Animation]

OMG - Don't let her get away with playing the kids off against you - that behaviour has got to stop.

And yes, you need to see less of her. She's responsible for making her own friends btw.

[DrNortherner]

OK Colditz, point taken - when you put it like that (nice to see someone call me Northerner btw, feels like the good old days....)

[Caoimhe]

Never mind seeing less of her - I wouldn't see her at all. Think of the damage she is doing to your children.

[Fedupwithmymother]

The mental health problems do amount to depression. Nothing worse than that.

I know I'm very passive in this situation and I basically should not have let DD1 go to her Granny's in the first place. But I wanted to please everyone.

Actually that is not true. I'm sure that I didn't want DD1 to go. I'm absolutely sure that DD1 herself didn't want to go. The only person who was pleased with the arrangement was Granny.

So yes. Utterly passive and trying to avoid confrontation. Every time a caustic comment comes I sidestep it and make an excuse to leave the house.

I've let this continue, haven't I?

[jybay]

YANBU and I agree that you have got to put your foot down and break off contact if she won't change. However, I did want to say that there is hope. My mother is like yours - mental health issues and narcissistic. She spent the year my father was dying trying to distract everyone's attention by telling them he "wasn't as ill as he was pretending to be" and that he was trying to kill my brother.

I had spent my whole life to that point tryingt to please her but her behaviour became so extreme thatI broke off contact with her for a year. Gradually though, we have rebuilt our relationship. She knows that I will not tolerate her bad behaviour. We will never be close but our relationship now is better than ever in the past. She is a good grandmother.

[DrNortherner]

If you've never told her she is behaving badly then how does she know?

Do you feel responsible for her emotional wellbeing?

What was she like when your Father was alive?

[jybay]

I've let this continue, haven't I?

Don't blame yourself. Your mother spent your childhood training you to be passive & serve her needs. Now you have recognised this, you can take control.

[CrazyPlateLady]

I'm surprised you even asked if it was you that was being U?

YADNBU, she is. Yes she may have problems but that shouldn't be at the cost of causing more between you and your DCs.

You had already rearranged your day, I wouldn't have done that. It is damaging for your DD to think that you don't love her as much and I would tell your mother that she won't be seeing your children as long as she is saying these things.

She is alone for a reason, clearly people cannot put up with her and your children should come first, not her feelings.

[Acanthus]

Yes but it's quite undersatandable when she bahaves like she does. Time to limit the children's contact with her, it seems

[eaglewings]

Difficult situation, for what they are worth her are my thoughts

You can't change your Mum, only how you relate to her. You can become more assertive and ensure that you are not hurt by her untrue comments.

Your children are your responsibility above that of your responsibility to your Mum, please protect them

There is help for your Mum, through social services, mental health team and the GP, make sure you share the burden

Only see your Mum when it has been prearranged and don't let her control your time or your kids

Have you considered having Cognitive Behaviour Therapy? It helps you deal with reoccurring problems. It also helps you find great ways of saying no!!

Good Luck

[CrazyPlateLady]

So her mental health problem is depression? This is absolutely NO excuse for her behaviour. I have had depression 3 times, I have a friend who has clinical depression, another who has PND. She sounds like it is her personality whether she is depressed or not.

[Animation]

Fedupwithmymother - There's a very good forum called "Adult Children of Narcissists."

[AuntiePickleBottom]

emotinal abuse, is the worst type of abuse as it psychologically harmful.

it could lead to your daughter having mental heath problems herself.

[Unwind]

She is being horribly abusive to your DD1, who might not understand this.

I think you should take Colditz' advice, which bears repeating:

"If I were you I would have a little chat with your DDs and explain that nanny is poorly in her head sometimes, which makes her say things that aren't true, and that it's because youlove them both so much that you don't want them to see nanny right now while she is poorly."

If you think she needs more help, don't hesitate to contact SS. She has chosen to isolate herself from the rest of the world. This is not something which has been forced on her.

YANBU

[warthog]

you are not responsible for her.

i'm afraid i would cut contact, because she is very damaging. she's having a darned good go at your relationship with your dd1.

put a stop to it now.

[Fedupwithmymother]

It's true that I have never once told her that I thought she was behaving badly

I feel that I've been complicit in this. In fact I have been complicit in this - until it all erupted.

She was a nightmare when my father was alive. Lots of issues around families - she refused to allow my DF to see his family at our home at all. Once, they ventured around to see us. She spotted them knocking and climbed out of the bedroom window (was a bungalow so not as dramatic as it sounds) so that she could get to the car and drive off.

Seriously she was utterly nuts. I was not allowed to have anyone around the house when she was in her dressing gown. As she spent her entire life in her dressing gown, I was in fact never allowed to have anyone back home.

But because I've always known she was utterly nuts I've tried to protect her. Here though, I have a clear duty to protect my children. And maybe myself too, a little bit.

[OmniaParatus]

Like jybay and yourself I've been in a similar situation with my mother that led me to sever contact with her. She was also depressed at the time, having lost my stepfather, but was so emotionally abusive that the relationship could not continue.

She asked to see me when DS was born and has been a part of myself and my children's lives for 3 years. She shows none of the controlling behaviour she did before (for the whole of my life, it got worse when she was depressed), and is helpful and supportive.

I made it clear that any repeat of the behaviour she showed before would result in me not seeing her, but I was very clear at the time the relationship ended that she was always welcome to contact me, PROVIDING she stopped being so harmful.

I would suggest if things have gotten so bad, you make it clear you cannot continue to see her, but leave the door open. People can change, but being in a relationship with someone who is abusive is exhausting and damaging to you and your family, and whatever happens you cannot let it continue. Things need to change, for you and your DD's sake.

[DrNortherner]

fedup - I can relate to a lot of your posts. Search my name and you'll see what I mean.

My Mum too has had issues with depression for all of my life, Dad and I dealt with it in our own way, mainly by walking on eggshells around her and protecting her. But in doing so she got to behave however she wanted. Then my beloved Dad died, and I was left to deal with her alone, and the shit hit the fan. I balled and screamed at her, i told her she was nuts. She spent her whole life making me feel guilty "You are all I've got" and "I'm lonly" and "no one supports me or comes to see me" I could go on...

What I am trying to say is she needs a bit of tough love. Tell her what you will and won't accept. Sounds like she needs you a lot more than you need her. It will be tough for a while, but I think things will and can improve.

[ChippingIn]

I feel for you :(

I don't think you have any option but to limit her time with your DD's to when you are there too - so you know what she is saying to them.

When she does say something 'wrong' (like you love one DD but not the other) correct her there and then.

Keep explaining to your DD's that Granny isn't well... and if affects things she says, so sometimes she says things that are complete rubbish.

[mynewme]

Fedup - she has been able to control you and make you think you have got to please her. The speed with which these people move between bully and victim / martyr is astonishing so that you are constantly walking on eggshells trying to do the right thing. The only people you have to please now that you are an adult and a mum yourself is you, dh and your children. You can take control now. Set a good role model for your dds - after all you wouldn't dream of behaving this way to them would you!

you are not responsible for your mother's wellbeing, she is. No wonder she is alone now. Its not your job to make it better for her. In fact I suspect she'd keep moving the goal posts so that she'd never be happy with what you did. Even if she dotes on her grandchildren she still shouldn't be allowed to behave towards you and them like this.
Just because she is your mother doesn't mean you can't cut contact. Sometimes that's your only option to protect your own mental health. We wouldn't accept this behaviour from a friend, and equally we can't always make it all better to preserve the relationship - your mother would have to change for that to happen.
maybe just start to set some boundaries, even with yourself if you can't di it "out loud" yet, eg I won't let her dictate my family's movements; I won't let my dd's be in her company alone; I will only answer the phone to her once per week etc? Something that allows you to be true to yourself and dd's. Possibly she will raise the depression card when you start to assert yourself, but I would point her in the direction of her GP.
Sorry for typos and likely x posts with everyone else.

[Fedupwithmymother]

THank you all so much. Every kind word has made a difference.

You've seen the same things! I am looking up those references. You are absolutely right that my mother did teach me to be passive and serve her needs.

This happened yesterday and I am still shaking today. I haven't shouted at my mother for decades, since I was first a teenager. I remember the last time I shouted at her - it was to stop her hitting me. It worked then, so maybe it will work now.



So maybe it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Maybe there can be some moderated form of contact.

[DrNortherner]

Seriously, get thee to the daughters of narssisstic mothers website.

Her saying she never hit you is called gaslighting, there is even a term for it.

[funtimewincies]

You're stuck in the middle. It's OK to say 'cut your mother off' but I suspect that you know it's never that simple. Limiting contact might be the best that you can hope for.

Are your daughters old enough for you to explain that their Grandmother is ill and that it makes her say things that are untrue and hurtful?