To think you don't need to be particularly bright to be an investment banker?

[Cortina]

In other words if you wanted to be an investment banker then in the past hard work, diligence and decent A levels and Uni course could almost guarantee a career in the industry?

A brother of an old college friend has just bought a home counties house for 5 million cash. It was always his life plan to earn big bucks and he has realised his dream. Not born with a silver spoon but very hard working, serious and dedicated. Not short on self belief and confidence too it has to be said.

Thing is I know of quite a few like this, many not quite so successful but they earn around the 250k basic sort of mark I believe.

I suppose what I am saying that if you are hard working enough and want to earn big money then you can target a career in an industry that will likely give you large financial rewards.

I'd always thought that you had to be some sort of 'extraordinary' person in terms of personal 'gifts' and 'abilities' if that makes sense?

litchick does that mean you have to be exceptionally bright to be a rocket scientise ? I have no idea what they actually do.

I think if you are capable of working in the areas that you have stated you probably are pretty bright. Quite likely even super bright, if that means bright compared to the rest of the population.

The problem with working in a profession where there are lots of very bright people is that you start to think of yourself as decidedly average. When of course compared to the rest of the population you just aren't.

I think that FreeButtonBee has got it spot on. Some of the guys on a trading floor are exceptional mathematical whizzkids, others are just loud mouthed barrow boys with the gift of the gab, just depends what desk you work on!

Investment bankers are a different kettle of fish, and you've got to be pretty bright and very motivated to be successful in mergers and acquisitions, or general investment banking, imo.

All of those guys earning the big bucks are working really long hours in a very stressful environment though, and Tim Nice-But-Dim riding on daddy's coat tails never seems to be around in the job for long!

As some people have correctly said, define investment banker?

It's a very wide range of people from sales, traders, analysts, corporate finance, research etc etc. They will work in areas ranging from simple products (like shares) to very complex structured products (like tax derivatives).

Each of those will have their own set of skills. You're unlikely, for example, to find traders who aren't incredibly smart numerically and able to do think through complicated mathematical structures like lightning. Equally though, these people are less likely to be super-literate (although there are obviously exceptions).

As a broad rule, however, these days it is likely that most people are going into investment banking will be pretty bright, at least from a traditional academic perspective. This is simply because investment banking is very hard to get into so they set the entry bar very high.

At my old place of work, these days you need to have at least a 2:1, or more normally a First, from Oxbridge (or from a Continental comparable like HAC or Bocconi) to even have your application looked at for corporate finace. This may not make you the smartest kid on the block, but it probably means you need to be quite bright on balance, albeit in an academic way. Thankfully this was not the case then I joined .

This is wrong, I'm sure: they might give the impression socially of being duffers but then, that's the type. One doesn't need to "show off" one's brightness. I knew plenty of damned bright people at college who were quite happy to keep their brightness in the arena where it was needed -- and quite happy to fart in public, tell long boring stories, read Wilbur Smith, vomit in flower tubs etc, just like everyone else.

there are a LOT of different jobs in an investment bank.

a LOT of different ones, including all the jobs you'd find in any large company (finance, IT, HR, researchers, premises, accountants etc etc).

there are some jobs which are very technical and where you will find people with 1st in Maths, and PhDs etc. . There are other jobs which are not so geeky. In Operations there are still jobs for school leavers.

the one thing they all have in common is commitment and willingness to work very hard. If the work isn't done... you just don't go home, that will apply to the MD, to the VPs to the people in graphics right to the secretary...

Cordiality is right. My partner gets to work by 7am (sometimes 6:30am) and doesn't leave until 8pm at the earliest. Often he has to go to functions and meals which he hates and he doesn't get in until 2am. His job is very stressful so it does take a certain level of brains and stamina to cope in such an environment. However, I don't think one can compare medics to bankers. Having a family member who is a Doctor, the academic expectations do not compare.

Littlered I would still argue that, depsite him not having followed the "traditional" route with his GCSE's, academic intelligence is important to what he does. Presumaby the test paper he sat in place of the normal qualifications was academically rigerous?

I haven't done a medical degree but I would suspect that it too is fairly academically challenging?

Some of them do work hard but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about intelligence.

Some of the bright boys work very hard; some don't.

Some of the sales guys work super hard but mainly trying to convince everyone else why this deal (that will make them loads of money) is such a good idea. Sometimes that can take a lot of time

He didn't reckon so, actually. He's pretty bright but he thinks his A-levels in other subjects were much more academically demanding. I guess of course it's hard to tell whether it's a suitability issue, as people tend to find things they're good at easier.

But I am pretty sure being academically bright isn't anything like as important as it's often cracked up to be. He points out that traditional science A-levels don't spend much time teaching you to solve problems - in fact, you really try to exclude complicated 'unfair test' situations. And yet dealing with those is a huge part medicine. Different kind of skills.

(Sorry, I am totally hijacking from investment bankers. )

Littlered I suppose the point would be all things being equal how many people in the country would have the academic ability to complete a medical degree.

I am stabbing wildly in the dark here but 5%? 10% at a push? IMO if you are in the top 5% you probably deserve to be recognised as pretty bloody bright. But I guess it is all a matter if semantics.

But I suspect that within that 5-10% of people with the academic ability, many wouldn't succeed if they tried to become doctors. Of those who didn't succeed, I would be really surprised if some weren't in the top 1-4% academically. The point is, the academic ability probably isn't the main issue. A certain level is needed, but it's not the defining characteristic of a doctor. I think.

I bet the same's true of investment bankers, too.

Cordiality agree with you re: Tim Nice-But-Dim riding on daddy's coat tails never seems to be around in the job for long!

It seemed to take up to 2 years in some cases though and a few I know managed to move between at least 4 banks, averaging 2 years in each, before anyone rumbled them.

I felt sorry them. They seemed to have the burden of a huge family expectation they'd succeed in a world they were fundamentally unsuited to.

It appears to be easier to earn markedly more in the financial sector even if the person is not hugely or especially clever or talented.

It is possible, as say a film director, but you would need to be at the very top of your industry.

Greater opportunity for more people to make £ in banking.

I agree that you would need to have drive in banking, work very hard etc

Its true, you really dont have to be that bright to be an investment banker.

Littlered I agree that academic ability doesn't necessarily mean you would make a good dr and I also agree that there will be a few doctors who are not in the top 5% I would however be shocked (and a little horrified) if there were any drs who weren't in the top 50% (or maybe even 25%).

So I agree academic ability is not the only factor but to suggest it doesn't play a significant part, is IMO unfair.

Yanbu- agree with many others that in fact many professions or jobs which are generally thought of as the realm of the very bright, don't actually require huge intelligence, eg medicine, where the ability to work consistently hard, remember an awful lot of information etc is probably the key skill. There are a number of professions which require top A level grades to get into uni- but again, You don't need to necessarily be very bright to get those, as A levels are so prescriptive nowadays- learn the formula, work hard and you're there. That's not to denigrate students hard work, I'm just saying that it's exactly that- hard graft. As a teacher I've seen many very diligent and pretty bright students (usually girls) gain higher grades than super intelligent but less conventional students ( usually boys). Not being sexist- just fact.

OF course there are many types of intelligence too, and a GOOD investment banker will take intelligent risks. Risk taking in itself isn't a skill though - it's the ability to assess risk intelligently which makes the
difference.

Creat

Whoops! Creative intelligence- the ability to consistently think and act in new directions, is probably not needed for many jobs.

Sorry, nancy, I didn't intend to imply intelligence doesn't matter - only that it doesn't matter as much as people often think.

I do think this is important to stress because I think the reason my mate did another degree before he got into medicine was that he thought you had to be incredibly academically successful. But I don't in the least mean to belittle medics' intelligence.

lots of parents are in investment banking at dc's school.

they almost all went to oxbridge - i think that must mean that they are pretty intelligent as well as now being v driven.

the vast majority also went to big public schools but i don't think that makes them any less intelligent - they just knew how the system worked, that's all.

Agree, LittleRedPumpkin. I think that I might be able to swing a medicine degree with a huge amount of hard work and diligence and I am not brain of Britain.

I'd never have even considered it way back, believing I wasn't clever enough. Confidence is so key.

Yep. No degree and regarded as thick at grammar school. Spent my twenties trading eurobonds after a lucky break as a PA. Got married at 32 and had worked so hard that by the time ds came along had 8 years as a SAHM. No guilt whatsoever because my capital set us up. Actually don't think I was thick - just didn't fit the average teacher's expectations of the perfect schoolgirl - they all ended up as physiotherapists or section managers in M&S.

To be honest nearly all the bankers I know have straight As and Oxbridge degrees and usually a second fluent language. I do tend to equate banking with corporate finance though.

I honestly (and not at all modestly!) am bright enough to have done pretty much any academically challenging job I wanted to (could never have done anything creative for example) and I ran screaming from corporate finance because of the hours and the mind-numbingness of the work in the early years. Yes they're paid a lot. Could anyone do it? In my experience it takes a certain type of person intellegence is part but not all of that.

I assume the guy doing medicine without science a-levels is going down the graduate route btw. Don't think it's poss to get onto 'normal' medicine without chemistry.

I don't know how bright you need to be, but I would find it deadly boring.

it is possible to earn a LOT of money if you target this as a goal early in life, are strategic in planning for it and are supported by the adults in your life.

most people however, aim to find and utilise their talents and have a job they enjoy... i know i do.. but i have a friend or two who have prioritised earning money and will head for early retirement as they have a lot of money but don't actually like their jobs.