to think the 'F' word is one we should be proud of......

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

Thanks to MN, especially dittany, Lenin, BoF and Anyfucker, I have been made aware of my casual attitude to misogyny. This short journey in my reclaiming my old values recently lead me to the London Feminist Network Conference on Saturday. And Oh my God it is one of the most inspirational things I've ever done.

Having money and being relatively attractive in my younger days I was mislead into thinking that being a feminist was irrelevant, after all we had a female PM and then 'girl power' where we were fooled into thinking with the right body shape and a little wit the world was our oyster (farm).

My husband's and friends' response to my recent activities have ranged from being mystified to mockery, from resentment to full on stereotypical prejudice. I am alarmed that barely any of my friends think feminism is relevant.

Am I being unreasonable to reclaim the word feminist to mean a person that wants to rid the world of gender prejudiced?

Okay, so I am the wrong side of 50. I was raised in a working class environment but my parents realised that books were the key, and I was lucky, I was bright. I was a solicitor before I had my children - now I train the next generation of solicitors. When I applied for jobs, I was asked what my intentions were re having a family. Then I was told I didn't get the job as I was "over-qualified". I had my bum slapped and my boobs tweaked and I was assumed to be a secretary. I hoped that those days would soon be over, but those of you who think they are are sticking their heads in the sand. There are more women than men training to be solicitors. However, many female students looking for training contracts and trainee solicitors looking for post-qualification posts have told me that they are STILL being asked what their intentions are re having a family and they are STILL being instructed to dress to impress their city clients. Of course, there are STILL more male partners than women partners.

I remember talking to a group of trainees once and mentioning that feminism was dead. I meant that women, regretably, no longer consider it relevant, but one woman mentioned that she thought it was dead as it was no longer required.

Well, I am not anti-men, but I am a feminist and proud to be one - for my daughter's sake.

posie unlike you i dont think i can speak for women so dont ask me to

i believe cant lump women as a homogeneous mass or generalise and globally talk for them or about their individual motives

clearly you don't share such worries

Posie has never claimed to speak for all women.

"i believe cant lump women as a homogeneous mass"

why not?

Q:"Explain why then that many women refuse to stand up for women?"

There is no definitive answer,there is a yriad of socio-economic,race,education,class variables that may explain.many have hypothesises and postulated but no universal answer

this inference of letting the side down or not standing up for women,is in itself weak and presumptuous. what side?What women

You however have had a damn good guess at other people motives and your suggestions range from

too brainwashed to even defend their own kind.
Too frightened (to be feminist presumably)
conditioned (presumably to acquiesce with patriarchy)
why cant women recognise themselves as a group?- because women aren't a group or a homogeneous mass.socio-economics, class,education,race are all variables which can ascribe an individual to a certain group. of course they dont have to accept that classification.one can eschew societal labels expectations too

you cant you lump women as homogenous mass?

because we arent. my lived experience and values are not your experience.so many variables
class
education
socio-economics

look at the diversity of views , and opinion on mn.sahm/working is always a goodie so illustrate there is no homogenity of opinion

certainly we live by association and allegiance and generally chose career,people,partners who suit us.and also exclude people,politics,places that don't suit

if you do therefore think women are homogeneous that is a big ideological flaw

within feminist literature and discussion there is still fierce debate.it isnt all we are homogeneous

ellie levenson explored the phenomena of women who wouldn't align self to feminism Im not a feminist but...book itself is frothy but a commentary on how feminism as a concept isnt universally embraced by all women

Thank you sprogger. Finding it a bit hard listening to spats about what feminism means,to be honest. I have a husband and sons too. Just because I love them doesn't mean I can't recognise injustice when I see it. My beloved daughter apart, I feel I haven't finished fighting my own battles (I shall be working to 66 for God's sake). Come on ladies, no, we aren't a homogenous mass, but lets see a bit of sisterhood - PLEASE.

And again.... are black anti-racists an homogenous group? Of course not, some are posh, some not, some educated, some not, some are respected, successful and rich, some are poor... etc. etc. It doesn't stop them identifying a common issue - racism.

D'you remember that time when Naomi Campbell said that black women were discriminated against in modelling and paid less than white women? The main response from the media, was derision that such a privileged, highly paid woman was complaining about racism, but I actually thought she was right - it's irrelevant how much she's paid, if she's being paid less just becuase of being black, then she is just as much a victim of racism as any other black person who is not being paid as much as a white person. The thing she has in common with a shop-worker who is being paid less than their white counterpart, is her skin-colour or race. Although obviously NC is far more privileged than the shop worker, the thing which affects both their lives (to different degrees) is the disadvantage they share because of racism.

Same with women. The thing I have in common with Margaret Thatcher (and I suspect that it is literally the only thing) is that both of us have shared the disadvantage of sexism. Mind you, she's overcome it much better than I have.

Isn't the whole point of feminism that women are not a homogenous mass? Or am I missing something?

Surely feminism promotes the idea that women are individuals and should be free to develop as individuals - hence feminist rejection of biological determinism and more conservative elements of evolutionary psychology.

I think it's ridiculous though to claim that women can't be considered as a group in some contexts, especially when it comes to issues such as rape. Isn't it pertinent to ask why women are raped by men? Or why women are less likely to make partner as a solicitor?

Oh for God's sake

Can all the women that declare themselves as non or anti feminist please:

Stop voting

Stop working in anything that isn't an assistant's role

Stop being allowed to own property

Stop getting custody of their children

Stop asking for a divorce and only be granted one if their husband wishes so.

And then close the door behind them and get on with their knitting please.

Because all of the above have been achieved by women campaigning for it. Have a little look at countries other than England where there was a strong feminist movement, and then tell me that it was all handed by sheer kindness to us.

countries other than England where there wasn't a strong feminist movement

what on earth are you havering about nelly?the only folk name shouting anti feminist are so called feminists

whats the knitting reference?

So called feminists? Who are the real ones?

You are the insisting we shouldn't lump women as a homogeneous mass.

My (English) mother in law was not allowed to buy property unless her guardian or husband was also co-owner. Does that make sense to you?

How do you explain the vast lack of equality between men and women? Who will fight that fight if not women?

so you advocate a feminist purity/ideology test and those not up to scratch they lose
custody of kids
property
voting
career
right to petition for divorce

crickey,will you line up and dispose of so called dissenters send to gulag

other despots favour taking rights/privileges off those not falling in line,good to see you do

I find the term "so called feminists" quite problematic. Do you deny there are any at all or they are the wrong kind somehow? Can you explain?

i find taking rights and privileges off women quite appalling.and in name of feminism.nice

No, I don't have the power or the desire to take any of those away. But if one derides feminism surely they shouldn't benefit it either.

benefit from it

how will you determine which women lose kids/property etc.can such women be rehabilitated and rights reinstated when they meet your exacting standards

I think you are purposely missing the point scottishmummy; I can see from your writing that you're an intelligent woman so I don't think you're being sincere in your answer here.

do you disagree that the rights I mentioned above are the fruits of feminism?

stalin used to say if anyone deride soviet cannot be true citizen and must lose rights privilege

so you assert of woman fails to meet your specifc litmus test of orthodoxy she loses rights/privelege or cannot have societal benefit

nice