to consider single vaccinations over the MMR when mumps is not available?

[MsKalo]

I had my ds vacinated with single jabs - at the time he had the jabs, all three, measles, mumps and rubella were available. Now it is the time to vaccinate my dd and mumps vaccine is not available and I am unsure how to proceed as I really do not like the thought of the MMR and that big hit of all 3 in one...

Anyone had bad experiences with MMR? Any doctors in the house willing to give an unbiased (ie: not all pro MMR!)opinion?

We may go ahead with the measles and rubella and the chicken pox as there is not mumps vac available or should I just think about the MMR

DECISIONS! AGHHH!

Debs75 - "my son had the mmr and he has autism.
I don't blame the mmr for giving him autism, he would probably have it anyway, I do however feel it is one thing that didn't help. He hasn't had the booster and his 2 younger sisters are not getting it either. "

This makes no sense. My son had MMR too - and has autism. I too believe that MMR is not responsible - therefore his younger DS will be having MMR.

I am not a medic but do have a PhD in the immunology of infectious disease. My children will be getting the MMR.

Mumps might not kill, no, but it is a horrible disease. In addition, by not vaccinating against all diseases, as others have mentioned, you are compromising herd immunity. This is what is currently putting children in the UK at risk of dying of measles, a disease noone in our country should be dying from in 2010. Mumps is very serious for some members of the community who might be exposed to it by your children - for example, the very ill children that have been discussed already.

The ramifications of your decisions spread beyond your own family.

Scaryjane as autism can be genetic I am woried that they are at a higher risk of being on the autistic spectrum. Having the MMR was another thing which didn't help my son's autism. as i said mmr did not give him autism but it could of contributed to other aspects. I will wait until I am sure the 2 girls have no autistic tendencies before giving them the MMR. If only single vaccinations were available in circumstances like these then they would be vaccinated.

I said earlier that my ds's were both vaccinated with singles, just thught it might be worth adding that ds1 has AS. Of course I will never know, but I do have a slightly irrational worry that it could have been worse if he's had MMR.

Debs, when you say you feel MMR could have contributed to other aspects of your son's autism - what do you mean? I am genuinely trying to understand, not pick apart. Do you feel he may have been less severe if he hadn't had MMR? Is that a gut feeling, or because he deteriorated after being vaxed, or because you have read some evidence around this?

Again, interested not picky!

My son is not having his MMR booster. He was autistic before it but didn't have the bowel issues which I think Dr Wakefield said a small sub-set of autistic children suffer from post triple vaccine (please put me right if I'm wrong about this - having an SN child and advocating for him in so many ways means that I haven't fully researched it)

DS was desperately ill with severe D&V for ten days after his. Couldn't even keep water down and had he not been BF would have had to be sedated and on a drip in hospital.

He never regained an appetite for food despite having weaned really well and will now only eat about five foods at 3.5. He suffers from stomach pains and diarrhea and we have no hope of potty-training him in the near future.

I would like these issues to be checked out but every professional I mention them to seems to have been trained in the art of blanking me, not engaging at all and giving no response whatsoever.

As a child, I had measles, mumps and rubella.

It wasn't considered a "big thing" then. We all got it along with chicken pox, whooping cough etc. (I'm 48 years old now;)

All the Mum's used to bring the kids together to "expose" them and just get it over and done with. Best friend and I both got measles at about 2 years old.

We all had these viruses and pucked, vomited, whinged and pooped.

Aged nine (almost 10) my very best friend and another close friend and I were out riding. We were on a 14 odd mile hack/circuit.
My Best friend started to act strange (all of a sudden, completely out of the blue).Just silly answers to mundane conversation, we thought she was just trying to be "funny". Then..
She got off her pony and weed on the grass; in full view on the roadside. She removed all her clothes. She picked up conkers from the floor in her discarded clothes; and tried to force feed them to her pony. When he wouldn't eat them she took up a fallen branch (almost as big as Her) and tried to hit him on the head with it.

It was panic. We didn't know what the hell was going on, or what to do. I got hold of the pony's bridle and headed off down the road; to a safe distance. She kept trying to catch up to hit her own pony. Other friend cantered off and tried to find a house and a telephone.

Eventually everyone came, but it was a very very long time in my young mind.

It was like a Horror film.

My friend died two days later from viral encaphalits (sp) caused by measles.

When I had my DD (now aged 11) the MMR debate was alive and kicking at it's foremost really.

I booked 3 seperate jabs in France, DD was going to be due her MMR three weeks later; but I'd already decided on seperate jabs and made travel arrangements .
4 days prior, there was a measles outbreak in the next village and a child died. I booked a emergency MMR the following day.

I was scared. I tore my heart out but decided that I would rather risk an autistic child than a dead child, no matter how small the risk associated with contracting these illnesses.

My Dh had to go with me for the jab. I was so scared.

I have no real advise. I can say that it was of the toughest hardest decisions that I have ever made. It reduced me to jelly; and I was scared shitless.

But also be aware that your decisions affect other people; and not just yourself.

Penelope How scared you must have been, it is an awful thing to contemplate.

DS caught measles himself even after having the jab so I'd like to think that he is at least as immune as everyone else even though I can't bring myself to risk the booster.

Oh jolly good. An MMR thread - these are always productive and objective.

Is it 1998 again? I must dig out my combat trousers and Travis records.

Graveyard. It was absolutely awful.
The only thing that got me through sitting waiting for the MMR, was the memory of that day.
I remember absolute confusion, absolute terror and not having a real clue what to do.

When we hacked out we had all sorts of warnings, advise from our Parents'. We didn't know what to do.

All in all it was shit. Then neither set of parents actually told us what happened or why.
On reflection, perhaps they themselves didn't know ?
There were loads of hushed telephone calls in/out.
And then there was just the funeral which I knew happened, but I was not allowed to attend.

I only learnt the cause of death when I was 8 months pregnant and litteraly bumped into her older step-brother

Penelope, what a traumatic experience for you, how awful.

I got mumps as an adult in my twenties and it was not mild at all. My face literally doubled in size. It was extremely unpleasant but it did go away eventually. My then boyfriend did get it, and it did go to his testes. By the time we went to the doctor, they said any damage would or would not have been done and just to cross our fingers. I still think about him and wonder (I don't know if he ever had children).

I didn't vaccinate to avoid that eventuality, but for the package of eventualities (esp. measles) and because I didn't have any reason to think my children were particularly vulnerable.

appletrees I take it you would actually know a scientific argument if you fell over one then?

As dippywhentired states, we are talking about good quality peer reviewed evidence, not the Daily Mail et al.

ayjay has hit the nail on the head - it would seem that the OP was asking for opinions but anyone who dares to say that the MMR is OK is viewed as being biased.

We live in a free society. If people ask for medical advice and then choose to ignore it then thats their call. But don't forget that the NHS will bail you out if your decision goes wrong. You will still get the free healthcare.

mskalo - they are your children, you do what you like. A single vaccine is better than no vaccine. While you are doing your research however, double check that the single vaccines have been subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the MMR.

I really don't care if certain MN think i am talking rot - I have read the scientific evidence (I had to review this while I did the MSc in Public Health), and I know that I can speak confidently on this one.

This blog is quite a good summary of events to remind everyone!

darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2010/05/facts-in-case-of-dr-andrew-wakefield.html

My vaccination opinions are related to multiple vax rather than an autism concern.

I wish that the singles were available on the NHS, simply because it seems unnecessary to me to give a child more vaccinations at once than is necessary.

I had to argue with practice nurses when I wanted to spread out DD's infant vax. I was happy for her to have them all, but uncomfortable sticking 7 vaccinations in at once. It seems so ridiculous. And all they could offer in exchange was "it's less needle pricks and inconvenient for you to come back again and again"...well, I know thay are worried that I wouldn't come back at all.

I am happy for the DC to have all 3 vaccinations. Though I question the need for DD to have the Rubella now, when it will wear off when she will need it most . But WHY can we not just have them separately?

Neither of mine have had the mumps or rubella vaccines, I suspect one of them had a mild case of mumps, but not a big deal.

It strikes me that there are two areas of concern being voiced.

1. Does the MMR cause autism?
2. Do multiple vaccines overload the immune system and is that dangerous?

In response to concern number 2, here is an extract from the Centre of Disease Control that gives a succinct answer.

"Can so many vaccines, given so early in life, overwhelm a child's immune system, suppressing it so it does not function correctly?

No evidence suggests that the recommended childhood vaccines can "overload" the immune system. In contrast, from the moment babies are born, they are exposed to numerous bacteria and viruses on a daily basis. Eating food introduces new bacteria into the body; numerous bacteria live in the mouth and nose; and an infant places his or her hands or other objects in his or her mouth hundreds of times every hour, exposing the immune system to still more antigens. An upper respiratory viral infection exposes a child to 4 to 10 antigens, and a case of "strep throat" to 25 to 50.

Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines, a 1994 report from the Institute of Medicine, states: "In the face of these normal events, it seems unlikely that the number of separate antigens contained in childhood vaccines ...would represent an appreciable added burden on the immune system that would be immunosuppressive."

This is taken from this link:
www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplevaccines.html

(An antigen, btw, is something that the body recognises as harmful e.g a bacteria/virus)

So, If a chesty cough (AKA an upper resp tract infection) exposes a child with 4 to 10 antigens, then the immune system can easily cope with the 3 in the MMR.

I am hoping this will put a few minds at rest.

Not really purple. Vaccines introduce those antigens into the body by an artificial route, bypassing our body's natural defense mechanisms, skin, mucous membranes etc - these all play an important role in our immune response so tbh I'm not convinced that injecting vaccines can be compared to this at all. There are currently trials being done into vaccines that you can inhale. I think this is very interesting. This may be more likely to encourage a natural immune response. I'm looking forward to hearing the results from that...

Yes - the "babies put all sorts of crap in their mouths" argument means nothing to me. When they start mainlining sand and dirt, and we have study results on that....then we can talk

Well put pfft :)

There will never be a study on IV sand and dirt so it looks like you will be quiet for a long time!

We are just going to have to agree to differ. I am sure that the physiological responses differ slightly depending on vaccine or not, but the net result is that health officials say its safe based upon good quality peer reviewed evidence. If you don't want to believe it, thats fine.

Purplewednesday, I'm a bit in love with you. You're a shining beacon of logic, common sense and reason in a fog created by Andrew Wakefield et al. It's a shame he was ONLY struck off, I think he should have been prosecuted for the harm he's done and the deaths he caused.
There is NO link between MMR and autism. Fact. Proven, empirical fact.

BagofHolly, people have other concerns about vaccines that aren't related to autism.

Thanks bagofholly

Is there anyone reading this who knows lots about immunology who can add any comments? bigkidsmademe are you there?

There was a health scare a few decades ago about the hep B vaccine too. Causes MS apparently....

To actually understand this issue in any meaningful sense requires a lot of background study and a good knowledge of human biology. A lot of what is being peddled on this thread sounds like nothing more than folk wisdom and hunches, and I think it's not only silly but dangerous and irresponsible to pander to these when life-threatening illnesses are stake.

I had the MMR when I was a child, but there was a measles outbreak when I was eleven and I missed the booster due to another minor illness (a cold or something like that). I caught measles and I have never been so ill in my life. I was a healthy, robust child who already had a degree of immunity from my initial vaccination; I can only imagine how ill it would make an unvaccinated baby.

I think this debate would be less likely to take place if parents today were more familiar with the diseases. Measles kills babies; mumps makes men infertile; rubella ends pregnancies (my mum was advised to terminate her pregnancy with me because of contact with an infected neighbour) and causes brain damage. Whooping cough is another one - my brother's bout of whooping cough, and the noises he made during the night, are some of my most frightening childhood memories.

MMR made these diseases rare and, most importantly, prevented them from spreading.

Dr Wakefield was rightly struck off. The man has caused untold damage and I hope he is ashamed of himself.

bagofholly i don't think you can really say proven empirical fact
that's a bit of a i know all attitude isnt it!

it would be interesting too see how many of the ladies who are so for vaccinating have taken their children for the chicken pox vaccine? anyone care to answer? no one has so far!