to consider the chicken pox vaccine?

[ooooooeak]

I kind of feel the pox is hanging over us! DS1 was vaccinated but DS2 is too young still.

What happens if you catch it just before going on hols?? Can you fly? I assume not. What would happen if your child came out in pox when your away?? Would holiday insurace cover your extra stay??

Its one of the most horrible childhood illnesses.

What are the chances of catching it under a year old?

One private GP I spoke to today was happy to vaccinate at 10months but this makes me feel a little uneasy.

Part of me thinks its a very managable if not annyoying childhood illness the other part of me thinks its a pain, can cause terrible illness even death and why not just be vaccinated.

AIBU?

"Chickenpox was responsible for an estimated 4 million cases each year, including 11,000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths in the US."

I wonder what the changes are of catching it before a childs first birthday are?

0.0025% fatality rate? yeah, definitely worth a mass vaccination campaign!

My dd had it at 9 months.

bubbleymummy

No, the human race wasn't dying out but it's because people were having a lot of children! That's why the population in Afghanistan is growing despite one in four children not surviving to age five.

Vaccines have contributed greatly to reducing infant and child mortality. In fact, they are one of the most effective health interventions ever invented. Do you think smallpox just disappeared all by itself? And hopefully polio is going the same way - do you know why?

Was she ok saggarmakersbottomknocker??

bubbleymummy try telling that to anyone that has lost a child to CP. I assume you didn't take up any vaccinations then?

She did remarkably well Especially as she was high risk (5 months post open heart surgery and in congestive heart failure). Was very spotty though, especially her bum which got quite badly infected.

Gosh! You must have been exhusted! Hoping she is well now xx

So nobody ever died of cholera, typhoid,maleria,smallpox,measles, influenza, plague,th,cancer before cures and preventions were found.

You're right bruffin, before vaccines were invented EVERYONE died from those diseases. There was no such thing as natural acquired immunity and improved sanitation did nothing to help us get rid of any of those diseases. Quite frankly I think I'll put my faith in something that has been evolving over millions of years rather than something that a company is trying to sell for a profit. With such a crap immune system it's amazing that any of us even manage to survive the common cold or a bout of diarrhoea at all. Maybe would should all lock ourselves away in our underground shelters until the pharmaceutical companies invent something to prevent those things too!

Do you not realise that we're all here today because our ancestors managed to survive all those diseases without vaccines, antibiotics and, at times, terrible sanitation and healthcare? Good grief, do people have no belief in their own ability to survive anymore?

bubbleymummy

You really need to do some basic demography.

We are all here today because our ancestors managed to have sufficient children to account for the fact that mortality rates were so high. You only need two children to survive to reproductive age in order for a population to remain stationary - which the world population was for much of its history until recent times.

You are correct about sanitation and general living conditions though. That accounted for the majority of the declining mortality up until the about the second world war.

But even with the best sanitation in the world, you won't get the kinds of infant and child mortality rates that you see in developed countries today. Aside from complications of prematurity, very very few children die in infancy or childhood and safe and effective vaccines have contributed significantly to this.

And out of interest bubblymoney, since you're putting your faith in the immune system, have you immunised any of your children? Does your faith in your immune system extend to not using antibiotics since if our immune system was failsafe every time, who'd need them and those nasty drug companies make them for a profit?

Should we tell people with HIV on ARV treatment that they should have faith in their immune systems?

I don't want to be rude but 'faith in your immune system' is probably one of most misplaced faiths I've ever come across. Our immune systems are amazing but they're not perfect and that's why we need modern medicine and drugs, including vaccines.

bubbley, no its not that we have no belief in our ability to survive, its the simple fact that the method of survival that you are talking about is a form of darwinism, survival of the fittest to pass on genes to the next generation.

The human race has been interfeering with that in many ways for hundreds of years.

Not only that but your method ensures the survival of the human race in general, I am concerned about the specific - my child.

Believe me if I lost my child to chicken pox I would not be sitting here with a warm glow thinking "Well at least he won't be passing his defective genes on to another generation"

Should a pregnant woman say "no thanks" when offered cp vaccine in pregnancy when it could save the life of her unborn child?

Please take a look a the percentage of children to survive to the age of 5 in this country 200 or even 100 years ago.

Vaccination does have its place.

The only hysterical person i've seen on this thread is you .

I am certainly not one who is considered to be pro-vaccine but I still had both dcs vaccinated against CP. I think the reasoning behind not combining it with the MMR is because it is also a live vaccine. I had the boys get singles instead of the MMR because I don't like the idea of a lot of vaccines (especially live viruses) at one time.

I agree with kickarse, I am concerned about the specific - my child. I worry about vaccine reactions each and every time we get jabs. So my kids have theirs spaced out much farther than typical. But I do not have the guts to forgo vaccines altogether. Dh is a polio survivor and my brother is deaf in one ear from rubella. It makes one stop and think.

I am certainly not one who is considered to be pro-vaccine but I still had both dcs vaccinated against CP. I think the reasoning behind not combining it with the MMR is because it is also a live vaccine. I had the boys get singles instead of the MMR because I don't like the idea of a lot of vaccines (especially live viruses) at one time.

I agree with kickarse, I am concerned about the specific - my child. I worry about vaccine reactions each and every time we get jabs. So my kids have theirs spaced out much farther than typical. But I do not have the guts to forgo vaccines altogether. Dh is a polio survivor and my brother is deaf in one ear from rubella. It makes one stop and think.

I had CP as an adult, it was extremely mild -- I didn't feel ill at all. That's so atypical (for an adult to have mild cp) that I have always assumed it must be a 2nd bout; I must have had immunity wear off.

Which suggests that even if CP immunity (from the jab or the disease) wears off that affected adults would only have mild cases, like children tend to.

Either that or my adult CP was a one in 10 million exception to the rule (some kind of superhero immune system ).

No hysterical at all actually, just incredulous that so many seemingly educated people seem to think that they would be completely unable to survive if it wasn't for vaccines. Considering they're such a recent thing, it just baffles me. Particularly the CP vaccine, which is what we're talking about. Im not sure where you think I said I was against antibiotics. Iirc it was bruffin who brought other illnesses into the equation. Including typhoid and cholera which if course we have huge epidemics of in uk . Clean water and good sanitation anyone? No?

Furthermore, for all those who think that they'll have a mild case of CP with the vaccine - you may have had a mild case regardless. Handy thing for the vaccine companies that you will never know :) so they can blame only the more serious cases on vaccine failure and attribute all the mild CP cases to their wonderful product .

The CP vaccine risks (because every vaccine has them) do not outweigh the gain IMO. You could still catch CP even with it. Your life, your children's lives, your choice. I suppose someone has to keep the poor pharmaceutical companies going especially in these difficult times! :)

Bubbleymummy I actually used the word prevention which actually covers sanitation for diseases such as typhoid and cholera , but it also covers vaccines and medicines.

Do your really believe in your little naive world that in victorian england everyone had 12 children, who spent all day playing with their wooden toys and survived to adulthood, then all lived into their 90s.

Diseases like syphalis which are so easily cured nowadays, devastated families with child after child dying either as baby or toddlers.

Look at the Bronte Family. Out of 6 children Charlotte was the only one who survived beyond the age of 30, and she was only 39, In the area 41% of babies died by the age of 6 months.

To this day there are over a million dying every year from preventable diseases like malaria or even measles (18 deaths per hour still in this day and age).

cross posted, but yu were the one who said we should be relying on our immune system. Just pointed out when we relied on just our immune system, the chances of survival past childhood were really not very good.

Not read the whole thread, but my 2 have have the CP vaccine. The stats are that 75% of people who are vaccinated will not get CP, the other 25% will catch it but are guaranteed a mild case (classed as fewer than 50 spots).

DD had the vaccine and a couple of (non-contagious) spots came up in the week or two afterwards (one actually scarred for a while, so I was really glad I'd have the vaccine for her) and DS showed no symptoms. A year or so later he caught CP, had 15 spots and no real ill-effects. He passed it on to a friend though, so definitely was CP.

The vaccine was, for me, the best money I have ever spent (about £100 each). I'll get their immunity checked as they get older and have the jab re-done if necessary (as you can do for rubella, if you are planning a pregnancy).

Apparently being exposed to the CP virus still boosts immunity in the same way as if you've had CP.

bruffin - 18 deaths per hour from measles. So and so preventable.

I'm not pro-medicine at all costs (pro-home birth for example, on grounds of risk and cost) but the arguments in favour of vaccination seem pretty unarguable.

bubbleymummy there are people on here who's healthy children were extremely ill with chicken pox, so what you are saying is a little insensitive.

As an aside, my greatgrandmother lost 7 out of 10 children to childhood diseases (tb, pneumonia, etc) and my other greatgrandmother 3 out of 5 too, so children did used to die of childhood diseases before medicine came along.

I am sure someone on here can wheel out sats if you are interested.

Yes bruffin I am aware of that. Do you think that by vaccinating them all against measles they will all live long healthy lives well into adulthood or do you think they will succumb to another illness brought about by living in poor, unsanitary conditions with poor nutrition? I think you're naive if you think that the root of these people's problems lies with the unavsilability of vaccines.

Are you aware that incidence and disease fatality declined in the early part of the 20th century before vaccines were introduced? What about scarlet fever? A major killer in Victorian times but not anymore even without a vaccine being introduced.

I am not against medical treatment (antibiotics etc) at all. I am very glad that we have it available to us and undoubtably it has saved lives. Although I do believe it has been abused. What I am against is this culture that depends on external intervention for every minor thing. In fact you could link this to the abuse of antibiotics for the treatment of colds and flu etc. A CP vaccine falls into that category IMO.

We could go around in circles about this all day. My view is that CP, given it's relative mildness is better left to our own immune systems to fight. ( I realise that people with immuno deficiencies need to take precautions against all illnesses - even mild ones) I do not agree with this vaccine and my own children will not be getting it.

You have been reading whale and mercola haven't you

Lol, that's your comeback? No, actually but Tell me where you get your info re the CP vaccine. I'm intrigued at the idea that someone can be convinced to vaccinate against something that has a 0.0025% fatality rate.