to get annoyed with the way English people communicate?

[BobMarley]

Now, I am not English so you can tell me to sod off to my own country if I don't like it here .

BUT I'm getting sooo tired with people talking in circles. For example, the hinting when someone need a favour or something. You don't have to have a 5 minute conversation with me just so you can ask me the question in a roundabout way. Can you just ask the question? And I'll answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

Simples and time-saving, no?

It makes me paranoid, as where I'm from you just say what you mean and what you want. No guessing and reading in between the lines involved. Half the time I'm completely missing the point of the whole conversation as it so cryptic!

AIBU?

[Francagoestohollywood]

Frakkinstein, I think that, as a foreigner, I'd have felt paranoid pretty much everywhere. I didn't want to blame the Brits!!!

When you are in a different country and you desperately want to adapt, make friends and feel "at home" you watch your behaviour more closely and become a bit "paranoid", imho.

[Heartsease]

at Franca and your dc. I used to live in a terraced house next door to an Italian woman with two extremely boisterous young boys -- the noise level was tremendous. I assumed it was just the three of them, but then one day realised that she was in fact married to an extremely quiet English colleague of mine. Either he never spoke (possible!), or his discipline was just at a different, non-wall-penetrating level!

[Francagoestohollywood]

Oh don't talk to me about queues... .

[LadyPeterWimsey]

Goldenbear: maybe it's easiest to think of it as a language, e.g. "When I communicate with the English, I will speak 'Guess' and if people from other cultures talk to me, I will try to think in 'Ask' so I can understand what they are saying."

[MmeBodyInTheBasement]

Heartsease
Your neighbour never got a word in, with his Italian wife doing all the talking.

[SummerRain]

Deliaskis.... we have an english friend who does exactly what you describe and it irritates the hell out of dp. Every time the friend rings and asks 'So what are you up to today?' dp knows if he makes the mistake of saying 'Nothing' that the friend will assume he's available to help him out with something.

It's trapping someone into feeling that they have to say yes as they've already admitted they don't have anything on... far less annoying to ask the favour and then if the person simply doesn't want to do it they can make an excuse and claim to be busy and the askers feeling won't be hurt.

Your way just makes the person feel cornered into saying yes... sometimes having nothing in paticular to do on a certain day is extremely rare and the person might have been really looking forward to a day of doing absolutely nothing, then they're cornered into doing a favour for someone instead and bad feelings result.

BobMarley, my dad is dutch and is very blunt, doesn't do subtle suggestions and says exactly what he thinks in all situations. I seem to have inheritated a lot of that from him but thankfully i live in ireland where people are more direct than the english so i don't get in trouble too often

[Bigmouthstrikesagain]

This is a very interesting thread for me Bob as it relates to a 'perceived' problem my Mum is having with a friend. She has been complaining on the phone to me about a woman (I shall call her Z) she has been friends with for nearly a year (the lady is from another European country). Mum (who doesn't work) looks after Z's young sons on an ad hoc basis if they are off school or if Z is working and cannot pick them up from school.

I thought Mum was happy with this, but apprently she is finding Z too blunt and demanding. I think that as english is Z's second language, she is merely making requests in a plain and direct fashion on the basis that she will be refused if it is not possible, iyswim. While Mum expects more 'dancing around' or obsequiousness - so the problem is at least partly communication.

I may talk to her about this as it might help her to work out how to resolve her issue.

[LittleRedPumpkin]

I'm sorry, but I had to have a laugh when I heard you were from the Netherlands!

We just come from clashing cultures. You find us too diffident and wish we'd say what we mean and get it over with; we don't understand why you can't be tactful. Thus it ever was.

There's a girl I know who's Dutch and is firmly of the belief that anyone who doesn't shout their achievements from the rooftops/ talk a great deal about how wonderful they are, must be a fool and failing. It is - to be pleasingly blunt - incredibly annoying.

I like the British habit of talking round an issue. It can be bad but often it stops people from looking like idiots if they get it wrong, and allows them to save face.

[LadyPeterWimsey]

I try to cushion like maktaitai: "I was wondering if I could ask a favour but I won't be at all offended if you say 'no'."

Since some people would still feel awkward saying 'no' even with that preface, I also say "You're probably busy but ..." or "I'm sure you're exhausted after your busy week but .." or "You'll probably have the kids around and so this won't work but ...". This gives them their excuse ready-made and shows them that I am happy with the answer 'no'.

[LadyPeterWimsey]

LittleRedPumpkin: only the British would feel like idiots if someone says 'no' to them. It's quite acceptable to refuse a request in other cultures.

[MmeBodyInTheBasement]

Bigmouth
It is more than a language issue, it is the way in which different cultures communicate. My German is almost native-speaker level and I still waffel about.

When I note that DH is not listening, I tell him off and he says, "I was listening when you started speaking hours ago but you went on so long I forgot to listen".

[Goldenbear]

Yes but SummerRain but I know a lot of people that would be offended by a direct request for a favour as soon as they got on the phone.

[LittleRedPumpkin]

LPW - I was talking about something slightly different (my fault for wandering from the OP, I guess). I was talking about being wrong, rather than asking a favour that's refused, because it seems to me part of the same culture.

The girl I know who is Dutch will always say what she thinks as a statement of fact, not opinion (in fact, she also does requests like this - 'You need to help me mend my puncture', for example!). I prefer the British way of being more circumspect. I do think it makes you sound like an idiot if you go around making statements you can't possibly back up, but she reckons that you should never qualify what you think with 'it's my opinion' or similar padding-out phrase because it makes you sound weak.

Good reasons on both sides, but I prefer our British way!

Btw, if you think the British talk round the issue, talk to a Russian! When DH translates a 20-minute torrent of words from MIL, it usually reduces to 30 seconds of English, heavily padded out with numerous pleas to saints-holy-Virgin-theotokos-our-Lord-saints-wounds-of-Christ-relic-of-St-Nicholas-Lady-of-Heaven-I've-run-out-of-breath-

[Laquitar]

When i first came here i find it difficult too. Now i like it. I think British think before they speak when in other countries they ...just speak and think later or not at all. Also, British respect the boundaries and personal space and thats why they are carefull about what they are saying. Now that i've lived long here when i go home i get annoyed. They are warm people yes but no boundaries. You say 'hi' and they say 'how much do you earn in uk?' or 'how many times per week you have sex?'or 'did you shave or wax your legs?' . No space at all.

But i have to say that some people here fear confrontation and this leads to build up anger (even hate). You know those threads here abbout shop assistants and waitresses when OP fumes 2 months later! I want to scream at her 'why didn't you ask for a serviette if you wanted one? No point wishing her dead now'

[Chil1234]

British culture is very strong on politeness and that includes not wishing to impose. We add routinely 'please' and 'thank you' to sentences - drilling this into our children at an early age - whereas many other languages don't require it. A South African woman at a rugby event I was hosting memorably thrust a wineglass in my face and snapped 'Wine! Give me wine!' (Rude bitch)

I'm guessing that you live in the South of England? Northerners are rather more direct. Either way, if you're fed up with people beating around the bush, tell them.... Practice what you preach?

[BobMarley]

The Guardian article is certainly a very interesting read.

SummerRain it is interesting what you say about feeling tricked into doing a favour. This has happened to me a few times and I find it manipulative.

BigMouth Your mum will definitely have to learn to say 'no'. Perfectly acceptable!

LittleRedPumpkin May I applaud you on just saying what you mean!

I was just wondering, if in general this way of communicating stems a lot from it being considered impolite or difficult to just use the word 'no'?

[Chil1234]

It's politeness all the way. Not wanting to cause offence. Recommend a lovely little work of fiction called 'Diary of a Nobody' if you want to see how we used to be 100 years ago. People tying themselves up in knots trying to say the 'right thing'. We've dropped a huge amount of the formalities that used to characterise British speech and lifestyles but the anxiety not to offend is still very powerful.

[BobMarley]

Laquitar Your point about pent up anger is a very interesting one. Digging a bit deeper between the differences between the Dutch and the English. Research suggests that the Dutch as a nation are happier than the English. See here for the happiness of children for example: //http//www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/archives/2009/05/happy_happy_dutch_children.html

Anyone think this has something to do with ways of communicating in general? That it feels better to say 'no' and to say what you think in a clear and efficient way?


Chil1234 I do live in the South. And I always tell people that they have to be direct with me as otherwise I might not understand. My classic phrase is: 'I do not do hints'. However, the problem comes when I don't know that they are trying to tell me something in the first place so I can't ask them to get to the point. I'm really thinking we are just have a chat without any meaning. It is only when I come home and tell my husband about it or start analysing the conversation a bit more that I realise there was more to it!

[frakkinstein]

I do think the British are terrible at saying no and end up quite unhappy as a result sometimes...

[Heartsease]

Oh I love Diary of a Nobody!

I do think we find it hard to say an outright 'no' -- personally I always give some reason why I can't do something, even if it's tacitly acknowledged by both parties as being an indirect way of saying 'I don't want to'. I think that some of the preamble to asking a favour is often aimed at giving the other person a 'get out'; i.e., 'I know you've got lots on with the event you're planning at the mo, so feel free to say no...'. I absolutely hate it when people ask what my plans are though as a precursor to making some for me. I also feel tricked in that situation, and I think it's very rude.

[fedupofnamechanging]

I think that it is considered polite to help people out if you can. If a person says 'no' simply because they don't feel like doing something, rather than having a valid excuse/reason, then both the person asking and the person refusing would feel that the person refusing has been a bit rude.

Simply not wanting to do a favour isn't really seen as 'valid', which is why if you say you are doing nothing, people will think it is okay to ask a favour.

We do want to give people a chance to refuse, without appearing rude, which is why we tiptoe around requests and cushion them so that there is an 'out'.

[edam]

I do the cushioning thing 'I've got a big favour to ask, do say no if it's not convenient...' or talking for half an hour about how their husband/children/dog/au pair/new carpet/house is before bringing up what I really want to talk about.

Think it's got worse since I moved down South - Yorkshire people are far more blunt and will tell you EXACTLY what they think. Which is a relief when I go home. At least you know what they are on about rather than having to guess. Although would probably still appear to be pussyfooting around to a German or Dutch person.

[SummerRain]

But what's wrong with:

'Hey X, how are you? Listen, I know this is incredibly short notice and you're probably busy but are you free today as i need a hand with x,y,z? ...... You're not, no bother mate, thanks anyway! How are Summer and the kids, you're all still coming up on X day right? Bye!'

There, done, conversation over in 2 minutes and nobody feels irritated or abused.

As opposed to what said friend did to us last year:

'Hey X how's things? [10 minutes of chat] So what you up to on Friday? [DP answers 'nothing much' as he thinks friend wants to call round, they're musicians and work on projects together] Oh, that's great... [the missus] and I were hoping ds could stay the night at yours, we want to go out for a meal. I'd drop him round about 4 as we have a table booked for 8 [they live 1.5 hours away]... that'd be ok right?'

a) the child doesn't know us very well
b) it was the night before valantines day so that would have meant having a child we don't know well in our house for most of valantines day... and maybe we would have wanted to go out too?
c) dp might have been free but the kids and i weren't and it would have meant dragging the child to dancing and other activities and having him in the same bedroom as our 12 month old who didn't sleep well.
d) the assumption that just because dp was free that we'd be willing to do it, it's not like the favour would be returned as we have 3 kids, one much younger than theirs.

dp felt cornered into saying yes, told me and i hit the roof and had to ring him the next day and say 'Actually, Summer has just reminded me we were supposed to be going to her parents that night, sorry about that'

Both parties ended up pissed off as a result when a simple polite request would have saved all the hassle, instead fo backing dp into a corner.

[Chil1234]

I think the answer is very simple. If people are dropping hints and you don't get the hint, don't go to the bother of 'analysing the conversation' looking for hidden meanings!! My Northern roots make me slightly impervious to hints, but as I don't spend any time worrying about what I might have missed, I find I can live quite a full life.

[MmeBodyInTheBasement]

We had German guests who were taught by their (Native) English teacher to say, "Would you be so kind as to pass the butter".