to get annoyed with the way English people communicate?

[BobMarley]

Now, I am not English so you can tell me to sod off to my own country if I don't like it here .

BUT I'm getting sooo tired with people talking in circles. For example, the hinting when someone need a favour or something. You don't have to have a 5 minute conversation with me just so you can ask me the question in a roundabout way. Can you just ask the question? And I'll answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

Simples and time-saving, no?

It makes me paranoid, as where I'm from you just say what you mean and what you want. No guessing and reading in between the lines involved. Half the time I'm completely missing the point of the whole conversation as it so cryptic!

AIBU?

[LadyPeterWimsey]

YANBU to get irritated. But it is a cultural difference that runs deep and thus you will be able to do nothing about it. I found this very helpful. And as with all generalisations it does fall down on an individual level: I am an Australian 'Guesser' married to an English 'Asker'.

[Deliaskis]

It is pretty deeply entrenched in our culture. But there is a reason for a lot of it. If I'm going to ask someone a favour, I want to know how big of an imposition it is before I ask, as I might not ask otherwise, for fear of them feeling obliged to inconvenience themselves.

E.g. if I needed my Mum to do a favour for me today, I would probably start the conversation by asking her what she was doing and what plans she had for the day, as if her answer was 'nothing' and 'nothing', then I would have no qualms about asking. If however, her answer was 'I'm making a casserole because I really want to visit so and so who has just come out of hospital and thought I might take her some meals for the freezer', then I would not ask the favour as she is already busy (doing someone else a favour), and so I might ask MIL instead.

D

[Francagoestohollywood]

Lindt, I do the same as you, and I'm Italian

However, my husband is useless with hints. I have to say I stopped giving hints, and just buy stuff myself

[LadyPeterWimsey]

Also 'Watching the English' is an incredibly helpful book for understanding what is going on with the English, especially the awkwardness thing.

[Onetoomanycornettos]

My husband (Eastern European) finds the same, but he is also gracious enough to admit that his country-people are just plain rude!!!!!(they really are, they don't smile much either in shops/banks/any 'service' type situation, even though they are nice individually). However, it kind of goes with the territory...

[Francagoestohollywood]

Yes, understanding the realm of "awkward" is fundamental to adapt to English culture, ime.

[BobMarley]

That's interesting stillcounting.

I've been in this country for a long time and I thought I had gotten used to it. But since my eldest has gone to school last year and meeting a lot of the other mums I've found it more difficult again.

[AbsofCroissant]

LadyPeter -this thread also made me think about that article.

I do find the whole super-non confrontational thing a bit grating (south african). Connected to that is that some English people rarely show/tell you what they're really feeling. I had this with two managers I had. My manager before them was Serbian, and if she had an issue, or thought I'd done something wrong, she'd tell me up front, straight away, we'd deal with it and move on. It was fabulous. Then I got two English managers. The more senior one would never tell me if she had an issue with me, instead, the second less senior manager would say to me "x is not happy with what you have done. I think you should do blah to make x happy". Why, FFS, couldn't she just tell me directly? It made me think she was just spineless (probably true). And then, they were always super polite, despite hating my guts. Whereas if I don't like someone, I can't pretend to be nice.

[blijemuts]

Ah,BobMarley,I SO know what you mean!!! I'm from the Netherlands too. I have lived here for nearly twenty years very happily but do still find it difficult to second guess what people are REALLY trying to say and it DOES make you paranoid!! Especially if they then get annoyed/upset because you haven't been able to read between the lines.... My Mil finds me a bit too much to the point still sometimes but says she 'let's me off' for being Dutch . On the other hand she does like it that she knows where she stands with me and I'm one off the most easy-going people you'd ever want to come across,not confrontational at all.
Having lived here for so long,certain things Dutch people do start to annoy me now like the fact that they just CAN NOT que!! Love that about the British... I don't think what you said should be taken as critisism just something that's quite hard to get used to when you move here from abroad.

[MarineIguana]

I'm English and I find it really difficult myself - even though I'm the worst perpetrator of it. I dread the thought of someone asking me outright to do something and me just saying "No!" - or vice versa. The embarrassment! And yet I wish it was like that - it would be so much easier.

It's OK when you really get to know someone, but for example my first child is just starting school so I'm negotiating getting to know lots of new acquaintances, other parents, teachers etc and I do feel like I'm constantly second-guessing and wondering if I've offended. It's daft.

When I lived in Central America I found people were very direct / "rude" and after the initial shock, I loved it. In Canada however, I was the direct one and the Canadians didn't "get" me and tbh it was a relief to return to the UK.

[DomesticG0ddess]

It's just an English/Dutch thing - the English often do as you say, and the Dutch are often blunt to the point of rudeness. DH says it is highly amusing watching the two nationalities work together.

[LadyPeterWimsey]

The key thing is to identify whether you are an Asker or a Guesser, and whether you are living in an Ask culture or a Guess culture (see my link above). If you are an Asker you will then understand why Guessers find it so hard to get to the point and look offended when you do, and if you are a Guesser you will understand that Askers do not mean to be rude and are quite happy with the answer 'no', no matter how difficult you find to say the word.

[SpookyLettuce]

I like the Dutch way of doing things now I am used to it. Working relationships are much easier.

[emy72]

I am Italian and I found it difficult the other way round. I found initially people found me rude and confrontational and I didn't quite get why.

Some found me very funny though and they are still my friends. They still remind me of things I used to say and how embarassingly funny they were.

I did learn although it took a long time. I actually think it's a bit of an art form for the Brits and they do communicate very effectively (not all of course but many do).

You often witness people shouting and screaming at each other in my home country and full blown arguments are pretty common, with really very hurtful things being said that are hard to retract and forget.

I found this less common here and it's not such a bad thing to control your emotions a little in general terms.

I do love both styles and I am used to both really, and there are upsides and downsides to both, depending on the situation...

[fedupofnamechanging]

'Watching the English' is brilliant and will help you understand us a bit more. I bought it and lent it to my MIL (who is Danish). Just have to drop lots of hints now to get it back!

[Ariesgirl]

That Guardian article is a very interesting read. I'm afraid I'm a Guesser to the core, as is OH and as we run our own business this sometimes makes for some awkward situations e.g. a lady phoned this morning with the most ridiculous demand, which according to the article was more like a request she was expecting a "no" to as much as a "yes". I of course was in agonies of how to deal with her. What I should have said was "no you fucking can't" . Or something.

This proves there's so much more to settling in another country than simply learning to use the language. No matter how much they knock the UK, for many people emigrating doesn't work and they return home very quickly, never having settled. Interesting stuff.

[Francagoestohollywood]

No, it's not just an English/Dutch thing. I'm Italian and I found the same.
I used to worry all the time, wondering if I had been too direct.
Now that I am back to Italy, new acquaintances tell me that I'm "too reserved"

[Francagoestohollywood]

I agree Emy, Italians are too confrontational (think of the things politicians say on TV... they'd be fired in the UK! And rightly so.)

[MmeBodyInTheBasement]

Emy
My German friend is married to an Italian and she spent the first weekend with her (then) DP's family thinking they were having HUGE arguments. When she asked later he was bemused and said that it was just normal conversations, albeit accompanied by lots of shouting and arm waving.

Good article, I am a Guesser. DH an Asker.

Agree that Watching The English is fab.

[DomesticG0ddess]

I prefer directness. Until someone tells me I look knackered or like I've put on weight. And then I think, "God, do you have to be so honest"?

[maktaitai]

Being extremely circumlocutory, I was interested to read dialogue in (translated) Japanese books and find exchanges I recognised. Another very English friend of mine who has lived in Japan on and off for many years says it's true, that she felt comfortable there from the beginning because indirectness and deprecation are usual there as well.

But there are levels of how it operates. Certainly moaning to your junior manager and getting them to do your dirty work is just rubbish management Abs, but then again you see it often (Henry II and Thomas a Becket, anyone?)

When I'm going to ask something direct, I just do it in the middle of a conversation and then cushion the end of it ('Is oral sex something you really hate doing? Not that I'm being nosey or anything') or if it has to be early on, I'll cushion the front more ('I've got a really cheeky favour to ask, so be free to say No. Are you by any chance free to babysit next Saturday?') But at least one end has to be cushioned, or I just feel the bones of the conversation grinding against each other.

[frakkinstein]

It's very true that the English waffle a lot, overuse the conditional and won't come straight out and say something. It's just a cultural norm communicatively.

Initially I found the French, the Dutch, the Germans, the Italians (everyone really) very rude and blunt but it does facilitate communication once you get past that first shock!

Now I spend a lot of time explaining to people that their au pairs aren't being rude/they need to ask things more specifically and not use the bloody conditional all the time...

Never would have suspected the English made other people paranoid though!

[Francagoestohollywood]

Lindt so true! I used to be very self conscious when I had to be firm with the dc in the UK. I was conscious that I sounded really evil to British ears. I wasn't, I promise!

[Goldenbear]

I suppose I'm saying they don't want to sound severe or insensitive when saying 'no' as it is not a cultural norm to communicate in that way and you would therefore find yourself offending a lot of your social group.

As I am English this is the only way I know how to communicate. My last antenatal appointment confirmed how embedded this manner is in English culture as I watched a Dutch midwife irritate her fellow colleagues with her straight talking manner! I only know her nationality because I was expecting to see my regular midwife and was getting increasingly anxious that I would have to be seen by this incredibly demanding woman as she was walking in and out of my regular midwife's office. Anyway I was very rielieved when they called out my name and told me to go elsewhere. I told my regular midwife of my relief and she said her dutch manner can come across as a bit scary sometimes. Now I'm not saying it's wrong to communicate in that way, in fact I could see it has it's uses but as an English person if you started comunicating like that I think you would end up with no friends.

[scaryteacher]

Even the Belgians find the Dutch rude, and the Belgians are quite direct!

And none of the buggers queue!!