Out of curiosity..

[Charleney]

What is wrong with Formula feeding?

I'm 3 months pregnant with my first so havent done either!
But would just like to know why its bad?

Lowrib - I'm not a paed or nutritionist either but I think if you drill beneath the mantra I think you will find the differences between bf/ff are infinitesimal. I would like to see this done actually rather than relying on the info' that is presently available and bantered about by midwives, hv's and the NCT.

The benefits are even more infinitesimal when weighed against the difficulties that some women have to endure. Turn the clock back 100 years and a lot women and babies who are fit and healthy today might not have survived.

I couldn't breast feed either. But I don't know that it is 'easier' to formula feed. It costs a bomb for a start and you are ALWAYS washing and sterilizing bottles. And I had nine bottles and a diswhasher and I still felt as if I was doing it constantly.

When you go out EVERY time you have to take enough bottles with you. If you haven't got enough you have to go home. I was once stranded on the M1 for 7 hours and twenty minutes and only one bottle.

With DS, I mix fed, then BF, then went back to mix feeding, then FF after 6 months cause the mix feeding was such a hassle.

When DD came along, I chose BF.

Bottle feeding is such a PITA! First you have to choose and buy a steriliser, bottles, teats and milk - and there is such a choice out there that's a major headache in itself and they are not cheap! - but then for a year at least, you have to be able to predict when and how much your child is going to want to drink and make up bottles accordingly. AFAIK, the new guidelines on making up formula suggest you make up each bottle fresh each time as the water should be at 60 degrees when the formula goes in to kill the bugs in it (milk is a brilliant breeding ground for tummy bugs and formula powder is NOT sterile) so there's no more filling multiple bottles with water ready for when you need them like I did with DS. So you're likely to end up with a screaming baby in one arm while you desperately attempt to get the milk cool enough for a feed a few times a day. Plus, if you go out, you have to take enough milk out for the whole trip. And holidays abroad!! 2 weeks of formula will take a lot of packing and they make you taste any you've made up before they'll let you through security.

Or you can get a boob out. It'd free, it's the right temperature, it's always ready, you don't have to get out of bed to make it in the middle of the night and it comes with all sort of health benefits. It's great.

I realise that I was very lucky that after getting started (DD did lose more than 10% of her birth weight at first) BF came quite easily for us and that for others it's not such plain sailing but really, why wouldn't you try?

onceamai, you may think that the differences are infinitesimal, but that is different from knowing that they are. In fact, the differences are substantial. There are major health benefits to breastfeeding. A little bit of time with Google will turn up many studies that robustly demonstrate this.

Charleney, breastfeeding can be fab, has health benefits, is cheaper etc. But it can also be hard if you can spend time watching some mums do it before you have to, that'll be helpful, and it'll be easier for you if you can get some support eg your other half, family, friends.

Good luck!

but I think if you drill beneath the mantra I think you will find the differences between bf/ff are infinitesimal

I was so surprised when I actually read the studies used to support "breast is best" and found that the claimed positives were teeny tiny to the point where the results aren?t necessarily statistically significant. With some of the older studies, showing significant positives associated with breastfeeding, I found that confounding factors were not taken into account, so breastfeeding was assumed to be the key when it was more likely that socio economic factors were probably involved in skewing the results.

Trawling through studies is not always fun if you don't like that sort of thing, but a good entry point into understanding the lay of the land (to springboard into your own research and make your own mind up) can be found at

www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3096

but you can find plenty of other sources that debunk the huge benefits claimed. I don?t particularly like the author of the above article, but hers is a very accessible springboard for somebody just starting to explore the concept of checking out the actual data in the breastfeeding debate.

By and I large the impression I have garnered is that if you live in the third world and are poor, yes breast is very much best (as long as there is enough food to allow you to produce milk). Not because breast milk is magic, but because there are practical considerations like clean water supply and the tendency to offer baby a weaker solution of formula due to cost issues.

Not so much in the developed world, where basically there doesn't appear to be that much difference either in terms of baby's health, maternal health (cancer reduction etc) or losing baby weight.

For the record I breastfed for a year, I am far too disorganized to be dealing with sterilizing bottles (the one time I tried I melted the whole unit in the microwave, my bottle feeding friend was not happy with me and perhaps thought I was trying to sabotage her, but it really was just ineptitude) and I need my sleep, baby who will latch on by itself and not wake me up = big plus.

And I liked it, really did. Still get a fizz, like let down is going to happen, when I hear a newborn cry even now and my baby is ten years old. If I had been born a 100 years ago I reckon my career of choice would have been wet nurse.

But I feel ashamed that I never questioned the rather bullying and guilt inducing claims of breastfeeding and probably exuded judgementalknickersness towards other mothers (although I never used actual words) who didn't breastfeed.

Ultimately creating happy, confident mothers who are secure in their own abilities to bring up and care for baby is probably of a far greater benefit to child, mother and family unit, than any tiny benefits associated with the way they are fed as infants as far as I can see, looking at the detail of the data.

So breast is potentially far from best if it is used as a stick to beat mothers into a state of depression or sense of inadequacy.

It's probably worse than formula if women are working themselves into sleep deprivation, high tension and feeling like utter failures as they struggle against a myriad of issues trying to breastfeed, getting nowhere fast. Nothing wrong with trying everything if you really want to breastfeed, everything wrong with it if you are been armtwisted into it with a guilt based message.

Pretty much as long as you feed your baby something that allows them to thrive and suits their tummy AND works for you, you are doing just fine.

If you bottle feed, consider carrying around a few photocopies of ?breast is best ? debunked? articles. Not that I?d expect anybody who has a quasi religious attitude towards infant nutrition (like I used to have) to read them, but it will give you something to beat them over the head with if they get really annoying ( =

A little bit of time with Google will turn up many studies that robustly demonstrate this.

And you will also find many reviews that robustly demonstrate the poor science behind some of them and the greatly overstated claims of many others.

In many cases it is not even the researchers who take their results and make overstated claims. It is the mainstream media who prefer headlines like "breastfed babies have a higher IQ !!!" despite the study they cite (if they even bother including details that let you know which study) having said nothing of the kind.

Which happened to be the first one that started me digging a little deeper.

Breast pump anyone?

Untill you have your baby you wont know what works best.I bf for three months, baby lost more and more weight she didnt feed i didnt produce,we just never really got the hang of it.Yes there was help but I felt I was being judged as a bad mother.We decided to try ff baby put on weight,happy mother! Shes three and a half now, the size of a five year old and bright.Whatever written evidence there is either way there is no point beating yourself up over something that doesnt work for you .Incidentally I was ff am rarely ill and have a degree.All the best with your baby.

Breast pump anyone?

No thanks, the one I had hurt like hell and I was convinced my nipple was going to snap like an overstretched elastic band.

I think breast pumps are so popular in America because the maternity leave is so short. Maybe they have access to more sophisticated (and less torturous) ones than I tried.

there is nothing wrong with ff, just see how you go and if you end up ff that is fine. i would say unless you really don't want to give bf a try at the start as you might take to it? and they will benefit from it in the early days but obviously it is up to you, and if you ff no harm is gonna come to your child due to that. mine were ff after 1 month for the 1st and 2 month for the 2nd, and both healthy intelligent, nothing wrong with them. you cant tell the difference between bf and ff babies its just one of these things people like to claim

My 1st baby (ds) was breastfed until 6 months, my 6 month old dd is formula fed, found I could fed my son no problem, my daughter was a totally different story, and had mastitis 4 times antibiotics can dry your milk up, and baby vomiting green milk (really gross) I personally wouldn't want to drink infected milk so gave up.. saying that though my breastfed child had his 1st tummy bug at 4 months and has had non stop colds since he was tiny, my daughter has been more healthy..so really not entirely convinced about anitibodies or maybe mine are rubbish!

I'm afraid you're not in a position to advise the OP that FF won't harm her child, just because of your personal experience

As far as I am aware there has not been a single proven case of formula having harmed a child.

As a substitution for breast milk I mean, not cases of dodgy water supply, inadequate hygiene in preparation or consistent error in dilution.

So I think in the absence of non anecdotal evidence to the contrary, there is no reason why people cannot tell her that formula will not harm her child.

If it really were capable of harming children (when prepared and used appropriately) you'd expects reams of case studies (with cast iron proof to support finding formula ultimately responsible) to be available for perusal.

Given that you mentioned it, why anybody would take the word of a nutritionist is beyond me. I can become an expert nutritionist right here, right now, just by deciding to call myself one. It?s not a protected title despite what people appear to believe. Any old bugger can set up shop as a nutritionist and give all sort of ridiculous information based on anything but evidence.

And they do.

"As far as I am aware there has not been a single proven case of formula having harmed a child."

So where do the statistics backing breast feeding as being best come from? all the stuff about BFing reducing the likelihood of suffering form X Y or Z actually mean that FFing increases the risks. Which is, technically, harming your child.

Oh lord, just when you thought Sunday was going to be a slow day on MN...

SoupDragon - no mother would purposefully harm her child - neither would she starve her child. Why don't you pop out into the garden to see if you can find a bigger stick with which to beat any mother you can find who has had difficulty breast feeding and who has then formula fed?

sarahitaly has articulated it all so beautifully. Bravo Sarah! :)

Actually soupdragon - the most recent "breast is best" article in the Guardian references data trials where formula was compared to err.... formula!

What Jareth says throughout this thread really. There is no guarantee that your child will be healthier than your friend's child because you breastfed. Any more than you can guarantee that your toddler will be healthier if you give her milk and carrots while your friend brings her child up on a diet of coke and cheezy whotsits. Not because milk and carrots are not a better food, but because diet is only part of the general picture: genes count for something too.

But her chances of being healthy, with whatever genes she has, will be greater.

Onceamai, I'm not beating anyone with a stick.

I couldn't give a monkey's how anyone fed their baby. It's all about having the chance to make an informed decision.

It would not be true to say that FF won't harm your baby. There are risks. Of course, not feeding them at all presents a far bigger risk so if BFing doesn't work out, FFing is one adequate alternative but it has risks of it's own and there is no benefit from lying about it.

"So where do the statistics backing breast feeding as being best come from?"

In the main, the mainstream media, who take a study and juice up the headline to the extent that it misrepresents the findings of the study.

The IQ of breast fed babies is a perfect example of the above. Popular press writing headlines that the study simply never claimed.

So many people when they say they research something actually mean they read newspapers reporting a study in sensational terms.(ditto getting info from bodies\companies who make a living from promoting breastmilk).

Relatively few read the actual study, even if the newspaper\literature actually bothers to give you enough information so you can work out which one they are talking about.

Then you have to hope it is one that you can access without a pubmed password or being told to cough up.

There are so many layers of obstacle placed between the public and the reality behind the headline\leaflet heading that it isn?t surprising many don?t bother to look deeper.

Don't get me wrong, I loved breastfeeding and did it for a year, and even now nothing will make me go squidgy and "ahhhhhh ! crap I'm sniffling !" like the sight of a mother breastfeeding her baby, cos I get nostalgic.

But it really is good enough for its own sake, for how it feels and works for those who find it doable and sustainable and whose babies thrive on it.

We don't need to give it extra kudos by demonizing somebody else?s perfectly reasonable mode of feeding their infant on the basis of data that just doesn't support the claims made.

Fighting for the right to breastfeed in public or in private doesn?t have to be done on the basis that it is damn near obligatory for the sake of a baby?s health. There is no earthly reasons why it should be treated as a disturbing act in public or an excuse to avoid returning to work.

Failing to address the reality of how those attitudes exists is why American women in their droves have had to turn to pumping, because the liquid is revered but the physical act of breastfeeding is most certainly not.

In the States at least, I think overstating the benefits of breast milk has shot breastfeeding in the foot, since the magic liquid is all that matters and the personally satisfying physical/emotional aspects risk being ever more sidelined while pump and bottle manufacturers turn a tidy profit and employers still don?t give new mother?s access to a decent level of maternity leave and sections of the public continues to feel justified in harassing women who try to feed their babies in the way that suits them best.

Cos it is only the magic liquid that counts in your feeding choices, so hook them up and then cover them up and get your arse back to work, look we put a pump in the ladies loo, what more do you want ?

Anything that causes economic growth and minimizes spending on ?dead weight? (like mums on maternity leave) is more attractive to employers, politicians, industry and commerce. So in the longer term I think the risk is that pumping could well become popularized elsewhere, aided by the deification of breastmilk, rather than a message emphasizing the highly personal and complex nature of choosing how to feed your infant in way that suits both the mother and child best.

NB ? I have no issue with pumping per se if that is what a woman prefers for her own reasons, I just have an issue with it being forced on women by the backdoor if they?d prefer to breastfeed, given half a chance.

Oh lord, just when you thought Sunday was going to be a slow day on MN...

I have to go clean a chimney, (choke, splutter) then go and paint a room, three doors and a kitchen cabinet, fiddle with my worktop and plan a few days of menu that will include a vegan, but still keep my cheese dependant Italian contingent happy any minute now if that helps LOL

"It would not be true to say that FF won't harm your baby"

Can I the titles\authors of the case studies where it was clinically proven that being fed formula instead of breast milk harmed a child.

I prefer to be informed and evidence of that nature would certainly be a help in that respect.

So far I have not come across a single case of a child proven to have been harmed by (unadulterated, properly dosed, hygienically prepared) formula itself, harm that would have been avoided had the mother simply replaced formula with breast milk, her own or donated.

All I have found is anecdote and unqualified people, with evident bias, confusing correlation with causation.

If you have access to information that proves otherwise I?m all ears, because this is not a position of faith for me, it is a position of reading and analyzing of the most up to date, quality information currently available to me and taking it on board. So I won?t reject anything you offer up simply because it does not support my current stance.

So, is human breast milk not superior to modified cows milk for feeding human babies? Are there no benefits, health wise, to giving your baby breast milk?

Soup Dragon - yes of course it's superior when the mother and the baby are both thriving. It may not be superior when the mother has to take drugs to deal with some of the more unpleasant side effects relating to it. It may not be superior if the mother suffers so much pain that it drives her into pnd as a result. It may not be superior if the mother does not produce enough and baby is very hungry and gaining insufficient weight. Surely in those circumstances you can find a little empathy and sympathy in your soul and might begin to agree that when it goes wrong no woman should be made to feel guilty or inadequate because of it. FF is a compromise when nature goes wrong. So are chemotherapy and insulin do you think people who need them should be marginalised too? Sarahitaly has pointed you in the direction of some very good research - do go and read it please.

My children are 7 and 10. Neither was breastfed. IMO, bottle-feeding is just one of the many and varied ways I may have/may still fuck up my children's lives.