do you think some aspects of English culture are selfish?

[lilystyles]

Does anyone else find quite a selfish English attitude when it comes to family? I was brought up on the French Spanish border by a French mum & English Dad. Elderly people were revered and respected and children were welcome in restaurants etc... breastfeeding in public was teh norm and teh overwelming majority of retired grandparents were more than happy to look after their grandkids a few days a week. I find it soooo different over here, breastfeeding in public seems to be seen as perverse by some people, people get sniffy about kids in restaurants, and elderly people seem to be an annoyance to a lot of their kids. My retired mother in law has my son for a morning a week and sees this as her being extremely generous. It is just very very different in England, has anyone else noticed this?

(types massively generalised and slightly xenophobic stereotype about either Britishmculture)

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(fits in perfectly on this thread)

I'm not sure it's selfish - just wary of other people's space. My parents are nervous of imposing on me, and vice versa. We offer help and support tentatively. I'd hate it if my parents barged into my life scattering hugs and tears and chicken casserole every time I had a crisis. But we are there when needed. It's a fine line and easy to get it wrong.

I am Italian and I lived in the Uk for years. And I did notice that lots of families in the UK are very nuclear and very isolated.

• either british people or culture

some areas of the UK have a lot of mobility which means that a nuclear family are isolated where they live and have to be self-sufficient.

other parts of the UK have less mobility and people are able to stay and make a living in the area they grew up and therefore have large extended famiies and the subsequent way of living.

many incomers to the UK move to the parts of the UK which have high mobility as it's hard to get housing and jobs in the less mobile parts and so they get a skewed idea of the 'culture'.

But Notanotherchinhair, if Spain is anything like Italy, there aren't many benefits for people who don't work. Most families here in Italy need a double income to live (especially in big cities).
And the government support for working parents here in Italy isn't overwhelming, therefore lots of families couldn't really survive without the help of grandparents.
It is a sad state of affairs, it is unjust, but that's the situation.
And most grandparents I know who have an active role in their grandchilden care are very proud to be still useful to their sons/daughters and society (at the end)

good post fluffles

One thing I have noticed is that in this country, parents are always too busy eating Fish and Chips and drinking 20 pints to pay attention to the older generation. But then, the older generation are too busy keeping a stiff upper lip while they get 'happy-slapped' by the younger generation.

This just isn't a problem on the continent, because everybody drinks in moderation in cafes on boulevards whilst people-watching and discussing Descarte. Everybody has a perfect work/life balance because the only job is selling artisan foodstuffs made in the local area by the older generation, usually from the back of a bike. And there is no trouble in the afternoons because everybody is asleep. Even babies on the continent have a nice, long siesta and simply nod off to sleep at night after they've had an espresso.

Anyway, must go. Its time for DD to give DD her bottle of White Lightning.

I agree with OP.

Except for the restaurents, I haven't come across that one, myself.

BF in public - I have no idea why some people have a problem with a woman feeding a baby. But there does seem to be quite a split opinion.

Example: My DP was in McD's one day, when a lady with her grandson complained about it, and asked one of the staff to tell her to leave. The young man (barely out of teens) responded by telling the woman that if she had a problem with she was welcome to leave.

As for the in laws? I think my mother just wanted to complain. My sis went back to work, and left her DS with his Nan a couple of days a week. She complained that it was a burden and that she couldn't do anything with her days off (she hasn't retired).

However, my DP is a SAHM, and we therefore have no need for the kids to be looked after. She complained that she wasn't getting any time with them. We said that she is welcome any time, but she wanted to take our children without us.

We haven't allowed this because, quite frankley, we don't trust her. She loses children constantly, she shouts constantly and has no control of her temper, she doesn't watch them properly, she doesn't listen to any of our advice about what they can and can't have (even allergy related advice!).

Sorry [bluish], I think this needs a thread of its own. Got a bit sidetracked there. I could go on and on, but yes, very selfish.

Oops. . No, I'm not a smurf.

Hi Franca, you're absolutely right, I'm just trying to bring to the surface the other side of the coin as things in other countries are not quite as bucolic as the OP might have suggested. What you have said is true, salaries in Spain are very low in comparison to mortgages and usually both salaries are necessary. If grandparents are around to look after their grandchildren and they're happy to do so, then in my opinion that's a perfect solution. What I am saying though is that it is a fact that many grandparents feel they have to do a job they're too tired to do as they've already spent many years working and raising their own children. Playing with and enjoying your grandchildren casually, as often as it may be, is quite different from the grueling reality involved in looking after babies and toddlers, specially at that age. May I also add in defense to this country (Britain I mean, and I am not from here!), that here there's a vast array of childrens activities, playgroups, support groups, classes, etc etc so that new mums don't feel lost and isolated. All of this is in its infancy in Spain and other European countries. As 'child-friendly' as they may be, they think nothing of smoking around babies, keeping them up until very late at night to comply with the social 'etiquette' of drinking until late, and there's very few organised activities centered around children (such as Gymboree, Jitterbugs, Wacky Warehouse, casual church playgroups, etc).

I'm selfish. I am a writer. If I lived in an extended family, with people in the house all day long I wouldn't be able to write a word. If my parents ever want to live with us we'll have to buy a bigger house with an annexe. That's the only way I'd do it.

Your extended family playing a role = my extended family interfering in every aspect of my life whether I want it or not.

Grass greener. Etc.

deepheat Why isn't there a laugh smiley on here?

"One observation, its often in rural areas that you will see extended family playing a larger role in kids lives because it is more often the case (though this is changing) that family in rural areas will stay closer together geographically. Fewer large employers = more family run businesses = families staying closer together to keep things ticking over. Also, the family home in rural areas is more likely to be owneed outright, less likely to be moved away from and so becomes more of a family 'hub'. Again, this is a generalisation, but I've found this to be true regardless of the country"

It may depend on what part of the country you are talking about. In my experience this is simply not true. OH comes from a very rural part of the country (Northumberland). There are no jobs so many of the young people leave. It may also depend on who the major local employer is. In the north east it was the mining industry, which doesn't exist any more, so, again, many of the young people have moved away.

We live a in a semi rural area and many of my friends in our village are incomers like ourselves and live newhere near their families.

I'm from an Italian family (although born and brought up in the UK) and it always amazes me the way the generations interact in Italy: it's quite normal to have friends who are your parents' friends, you see groups of people sitting in bars who are multi-generational. There is a certain amount of deference required to make that work though - my cousins hit their children because that is what they have been told to do by their parents, for instance. There is a certain amount of conformity because you are aware of having to fit in with older, more conservative values.

I so agree with NotAnotherChinHair about the really poor range of children's activities and facilities whenever I visit Italy or, occasionally, Spain. Frankly, my children couldn't care less about how they are perceived in a restaurant but they do really like to have good playgrounds to visit and things to do when it rains. And when I am out late in Italy, most of the children, while welcome, are tired and would be frankly better off back home in bed. I'm not sure letting children scratch about with nothing to do play while their parents sit around chatting into the early hours is really that child-friendly although it always seems to be held up as some sort of gold standard of good parenting.

Yes, I agree Notanotherchinhair (great name, btw!).
I think that here in Italy the government hasn't really done much for the welfare of families in the last 20, 25 yrs. So, when the State is absent the family needs to step in (which has its positives, but far more negatives imho).

As for activities for small children etc. Italy is like Spain, there aren't many organized activities for new mothers/babies etc, though they are now becoming quite popular at least where I now live (we moved out of the uk nearly 3 yrs ago).
I think the reason why such activities are only in their infancy here, is that Italian society is less mobile than the English one, therefore people are born, study, work in the same old place and have, generally, a good network of friendships, support etc, so that there has been less need of finding support elsewhere, iyswim.

But of course Italian society is changing, and its needs are changing. Plus, in the last 10 yrs there's been a change in people's idea of childhood and now parents are eager to have very busy small children (too much, imo!)

But it never rains here lalalonglegs

It's very difficult to (judgementally) compare cultures like this. Even setting aside the problems of over-generalising and stereotyping, your stance on what is 'right' is likely to be shaped to a certain extent by your own cultural background.

I'd say that English culture tends to prioritise independence and autonomy. Whereas Japanese culture, for example, tends to prioritise interdependence and duty. I suppose, you could argue, on that basis, that the English are (by and large) more selfish than the Japanese. However, by the same principles, you might criticise the Japanese for stifling individuality and self-expression.

Btw I agree with lalalonglegs re children at restaurants in the continent. Hardly our finest achievement in child rearing... though it is nice to have the possibility of venturing out with friends and the children for a quick pizza on a saturday night without being judged

OP mentioned 'English' culture so not sure if she was meaning the UK as a whole or England (perhaps South/London) particularily. We moved to the South and are pretty much insular and on our own as a family. Back in Scotland, most of my friends/family all stayed local and family is a big part of their lives and similar to what the poster said of NI. It was a sacrifice we made though it does have upsides with little interference and we do what we want as a family rather than plesing everyone else. You can't generalise as it changes so much depending on location/culture/class etc. Agree that many other countries do have a different approach to old people and we seem to be lacking in that area.

You were saying????

It's difficult to generalise so widely.

We lived in Spain four years ago and yes, grandparents were involved in famil life. But this was changing rapidly - post-Franco it became more and more common for women to work and hence you could see that for the next generation, grandmothers just won't be around to help out. Childcare costs are much much cheaper than in the UK and I didn't know any Spanish SAHM - babies were routinely put into full-time nursery from 4 months old.

Yes, you could take the kids anywhere but I'm not sure that having children in restaurants at midnight is great for the parents or the children (the Spanish government were always campaigning against it as the teachers were continually complaining of how tired the children were in school).

Very different attitudes to bfing though - I was amazed by how squeamish people are about it in the UK.

Depends on the family I guess.

I grew up with a enormous extended family - I loved it but as an adult find it a bit heavy going and so I keep them at arms length. Plus in London the lifestyle isn't really condusive to driving an hour after a long day at work to have dinner at an aunt's place. However if we get together we laugh and if there's an emergency I'd trust them 100% to help.

Contrast this to dh who's entire family live on top of each other in a small village of southern europe. They are not particularly a source of support but actually a drain.They rely on each other way too much and nothing gets done.

My dm doesn't live in London so I don't rely on her for child support - I don't need to as I can cope fine without her. I also don't revere her as I don't think that she should be revered because she's elderly, but she's very much loved and comes when she can because she's busy travelling in her retirement. I don't think that she's selfish at all - she comes home with great stories for ds and they adore each other.

I personally prefer that my ds went to a nursery to meet other kids rather than be stuck at home with my elderly mum. She would be knackered and ds would miss out on meeting other kids.

But then if you live in a big city with no family it must be very lonely.