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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think £516 per MONTH for a six day week is exploitation?

70 replies

hesteria · 05/10/2010 02:19

Found this on an expat forum today; here's the OP's post:

"Is anyone paying this [£516] for a live in maid inclusive of food, 5 1/2 days per week, very occasional baby sitting, private sector hols, own religious holidays, plus annual flight home and other legal requirements.

Yes or no answers appreciated, just trying to guage the market. TIA"

Most posters thought the OP was being ridiculously generous.

Full thread:
expatwoman.com/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=122411&Page=1

OP posts:
DinahRod · 05/10/2010 10:12

Friends in HK have a 24-7 maid for 3k per annum, the going rate.

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 10:13

hesteria: the point is the difference between what you would pay a part-time live out cleaner an hour and what you would pay a live in maid.

Live-out I actually used to pay the equivalent of approx 5GBP a hour which isn't far off minimum wage. That's about the going rate. People have to cover their own living expenses.

Live-in you are covering for their living expenses. The cost of living in the country is pretty much immaterial because the employee isn't paying it!

EricNorthmansMistress · 05/10/2010 10:14

Depends on the cost of living! My SIL manages a busy hotel and gets paid under £500 a month where she lives. My other SIL was working 6 days per week for £80 in a shoe shop. £500 a month is an excellent wage in some countries.

Bonsoir · 05/10/2010 10:26

If a maid receives full board and lodging and annual flight home, you must calculate the value of that (including commodities etc) and add it to the £516 and annualise it before being outraged.

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 10:32

And I calculate that brings the salary being discussed up to approx (depending on standard of accom provided of course)GBP14k a year. Tax free.

Sound exploitative?

MaMoTTaT · 05/10/2010 10:33

LadyB - we had a maid in Zimbabwe

a) because we could afford one

b) because actually in a counry that at the time had an unemployment leve around 30% (it soared to 80% in recent years) it was giving someone a job - and in a country with no benefits at all if you don't work, a job is a job, is a job.

Ours was a live out maid, so we paid more for her than some of our other friends and exH's family did, but there's had accommodation provided.

dilemma456 · 05/10/2010 10:39

My sister lived and worked in Sri Lanka for a couple of years. she didn't want to employ a cleaner as she felt it would mean exploiting them as she couldn't really afford to pay one. However, it was made clear to her that she SHOULD employ someone as it meant that a poor family would have an income. She found that she had people coming to her door looking for a job and asking for even less than she was prepared to pay (and finally did pay to the delight of the lady in question). Standards are very different as to what is considered exploitation

She also gave private English tuition to her two older children and said that they worked so hard and were so determined to learn. Five years down the line she still writes to them and returns copies of their letters with comments and corrections!

Appletrees · 05/10/2010 10:40

"Why is it that people manage perfectly well in the first world without live in maids and yet when those same people move to the Middle/Far East/Africa, they suddenly need one.

How do your houses get so dirty?"

Well let's see. For a start you are looking at temperatures of 30-50 degrees all year round. You are looking at cockroaches, rats,snakes, mould, armies of ants if a grain of sugar is left unwiped, food going off in a flash, plants growing at a rate of knots. You are looking at long periods in a car to get yr supplies as there may Hmm not be a Tesco's round the corner. You are looking at agency offices full of rather desperate looking people looking for a job. You are looking at a spare room and your normal size pay packet being able to pay someone a good local wage for the help you need. You are looking at a local expat population which is 99.999 pc maid employing so childcare swaps are minimal to nil.

That's why.

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 10:44

appletrees - you forgot the weivals :)

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 10:45

sp?

LadyBiscuit · 05/10/2010 10:45

Thank you appletrees, that is very helpful. I hadn't really been aware of the problems of wildlife!

I have a full time job and have a cleaner two hours a week which is fine in the UK but I don't have cockroaches invading the house. Hadn't also considered that you are providing employment for local people. I don't get involved in babysitting swaps either because I'm a lone parent so can't ever return the favour!

Was just trying to understand really, sorry if my post came across as aggressive. I think I would find it difficult to have a live in maid psychologically but maybe I wouldn't if I were in that environment.

SlightlyJaded · 05/10/2010 10:47

It does seem awful but...

An Au Pair is expected to earn around £80 per week for 35 hours plus 2 nights babysitting. But again, no housing, bills, food costs etc. When you consider the cost of living in London, you would have to earn quite a lot to have paid for your room, food, bills and still have over £500 per month disposable income.

MaMoTTaT · 05/10/2010 10:55

and as for the "How do your houses get so dirty?"

well

a) there were no washing machines - I CAN NOT hand wash clothes - they come out smelling clean, but still looking dirty (6 months of walking round looking like I hadn' washed my clothes was quite long enough thank you very much before I decided to pay someone to do my washing)

b) If you're working full time then housework becomes a difficult thing to fit in.

I saw one washing machine in a house in 2 1/2yrs living in the country. I don't think I ever saw anyone that had a hoover Shock. Maybe some of the expats did - but the ones I knew didn't. TBH given the length of time the electricity used to go out for it probably wasn't worth the expense.

Houses needed sweeping daily really because of the lack of "footpaths" (not to mention the torrential daily down pours in rainy season. It was hot, and dusty, clothes had to be washed more often otherwise you'd stink to high heaven (and look filthy too). So you either had to have an obscene amount of clothes or wash them regularly.

Time just wasn't there - it could take an entire day queuing/waiting/walking between places just to pay the bills. (that was down in part to incompetence/lack of more techy ways of doing things - and partly down to the wonderful laid back attitude people had to life).

there was no quick and easy way of doing your shopping (queues in those just as bad as the banks, very few "mod cons" that we easily take for granted to make our lifes a little quicker and easier here.

Given the high levels of unemployment it wasn't at all uncommon for poorer families - who couldn't afford a maid - to have family staying with them who would be provided with food and accomodation - in return for "maid" duties.

The lucky maids got paid a wage for doing it

MaMoTTaT · 05/10/2010 10:56

ooops - sorry LadyB - I x posted with your last post Blush

and oh yes - I forgot the cockroaches! - we had a family that lived in the cord storage bit in the base of the kettle........I think they like the warmth.......

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 11:00

ok MaMoTTaT - you needed a maid much more that I do :)

AnnieLobeseder · 05/10/2010 11:04

If she has food, accommodation and flights home paid for as well, it seems quite generous to me as it's all disposable income. We probably don't get much more than that in disposable income each month.

LittleMissHissyFit · 05/10/2010 11:08

"Why is it that people manage perfectly well in the first world without live in maids and yet when those same people move to the Middle/Far East/Africa, they suddenly need one."

Good answer Appletrees. Add to this Sand storms, heavy winter rainfall by the coast in Alex anyway, turns all dust to thick concretous mud.

I lived to a 'good standard of living' apparently (only missing my human rights to freedom etc etc, but by the by..)

Let me tell you, if you want to make food, any food over there, you have to do everything from scratch. There is no such thing as convenience food.

Microwave meal.... what's a microwave? any pre-prepared food in the freezer section of the supermarket will not have been frozen properly. It's well known that the supermarkets switch off the power at night... cos they are so ignorant of how to keep food.

Microwaves are available, but they generally break, and not really worth it.

You want to make a tomato based sauce?... unless you wanted to spend £3.50 on a tin of imported chopped tomatoes... Get chopping!

When I was first there, I couldn't even get stock cubes.

Literally everything i needed to make needed to be seasonal, and in its natural form. Frozen veg is tasteless, only very expensive imported veg is palatable. Weaning DS at one point the poor mite was restricted to mango, morning noon and night, there was nothing else ready.... (August) his nappies were very pretty and very fragrant though!

Mostly, if you wanted peas, you get shelling!

For the first 6m we couldn't even go to the supermarket, we would have been seen coming back with bags from the supermarket and that would have started gossip.. I kid you not.. open insane asylum.

In Alex we did a couple of supermarkets, but the prices were so often beyond the local purse that they treated them like a leisure activity, large groups of them sightseeing in the Hair Conditioner section... most women there wouldn't use conditioner, only oil to smooth their hair. Paying the equivalent of 5 falafel sandwiches for a bottle of hair stuff was something to gawk at.

Men have also conditioned local women to believe that a washing machine doesn't actually get clothes clean. Hmm I had a lovely machine though, but again only after 6m. For the first 6m, with a 6m old baby, it was a bucket and soap.

I did have women in to help once or twice, when I was momentarily PG, to help cook and clean, but they tried to steal stuff, I caught them, and they always helped themselves to my perfume... [grr] So in the end, I rapidly realised it wasn't worth it. it was back breaking work to live there. No wonder I lost 3 PGs. men out there don't help... it's unmanly to do so Angry

That said, many local women of an average level would have a girl to help them cook/clean. They see it as a form of charity. there is no social welfare system, women are supposed to be looked after by their father, their husband. Treatment of these workers is usually abysmal, they are harsh enough on their own children, domestics can suffer horrific abuse, and little is done about it and the domestic is scared to leave as she will have no money to live.

I recall a particularly lively debate on domestic staff started by one notoriously prickly expat about how marvellous she felt she was as she was employing a 10 yo girl. Hmm I told her there and then that if she wanted to pat herself on the back, to stop telling her to do the heavy lifting Angry and to put her into school [FFS]

Like I said, I've been banned from all of the local expat yahoo group.... Grin [well worth it emoticon]

LittleMissHissyFit · 05/10/2010 11:10

"Why is it that people manage perfectly well in the first world without live in maids and yet when those same people move to the Middle/Far East/Africa, they suddenly need one."

Good answer Appletrees. Add to this Sand storms, heavy winter rainfall by the coast in Alex anyway, turns all dust to thick concretous mud.

I lived to a 'good standard of living' apparently (only missing my human rights to freedom etc etc, but by the by..)

Let me tell you, if you want to make food, any food over there, you have to do everything from scratch. There is no such thing as convenience food.

Microwave meal.... what's a microwave? any pre-prepared food in the freezer section of the supermarket will not have been frozen properly. It's well known that the supermarkets switch off the power at night... cos they are so ignorant of how to keep food.

Microwaves are available, but they generally break, and not really worth it.

You want to make a tomato based sauce?... unless you wanted to spend £3.50 on a tin of imported chopped tomatoes... Get chopping!

When I was first there, I couldn't even get stock cubes.

Literally everything i needed to make needed to be seasonal, and in its natural form. Frozen veg is tasteless, only very expensive imported veg is palatable. Weaning DS at one point the poor mite was restricted to mango, morning noon and night, there was nothing else ready.... (August) his nappies were very pretty and very fragrant though!

Mostly, if you wanted peas, you get shelling!

For the first 6m we couldn't even go to the supermarket, we would have been seen coming back with bags from the supermarket and that would have started gossip.. I kid you not.. open insane asylum.

In Alex we did a couple of supermarkets, but the prices were so often beyond the local purse that they treated them like a leisure activity, large groups of them sightseeing in the Hair Conditioner section... most women there wouldn't use conditioner, only oil to smooth their hair. Paying the equivalent of 5 falafel sandwiches for a bottle of hair stuff was something to gawk at.

Men have also conditioned local women to believe that a washing machine doesn't actually get clothes clean. Hmm I had a lovely machine though, but again only after 6m. For the first 6m, with a 6m old baby, it was a bucket and soap.

I did have women in to help once or twice, when I was momentarily PG, to help cook and clean, but they tried to steal stuff, I caught them, and they always helped themselves to my perfume... [grr] So in the end, I rapidly realised it wasn't worth it. it was back breaking work to live there. No wonder I lost 3 PGs. men out there don't help... it's unmanly to do so Angry

That said, many local women of an average level would have a girl to help them cook/clean. They see it as a form of charity. there is no social welfare system, women are supposed to be looked after by their father, their husband. Treatment of these workers is usually abysmal, they are harsh enough on their own children, domestics can suffer horrific abuse, and little is done about it and the domestic is scared to leave as she will have no money to live.

I recall a particularly lively debate on domestic staff started by one notoriously prickly expat about how marvellous she felt she was as she was employing a 10 yo girl. Hmm I told her there and then that if she wanted to pat herself on the back, to stop telling her to do the heavy lifting Angry and to put her into school [FFS]

Like I said, I've been banned from all of the local expat yahoo group.... Grin [well worth it emoticon]

LittleMissHissyFit · 05/10/2010 11:12

Blush sorry!

LadyBiscuit · 05/10/2010 11:15

I had a row with a bloke on another forum who employed an 11 year old in Thailand. He 'let' her go to school a few hours and week and was convinced that she would learn English by looking after his baby :(

Do you want me to send you some stock cubes LMHF? :o

MaMoTTaT · 05/10/2010 11:21

ahhh now we were lucky in Zim that we had stock cubes - mostly imported from SA - and they were actually quite nice Grin

duchesse · 05/10/2010 11:24

It depends where the poster is!!! My sister lives in Thailand and pays her housekeeper
£600/month which is a very good wage for the place they live.

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 11:38

OP - I'm still waiting for you to come back and explain to me why 14k a year tax free is exploitative! You can argue with my figures of course but anything you reduce only reduces your argument about the 'cost of living' being so high.

LittleMissHissyFit · 05/10/2010 11:46

LadyBiscuit... I'm back in Sanesville now!! Left Eejit for good!!

We got Knorr cubes from Carrefore in the end, but by then I was used to making my own stock mostly.

That was the other thing... no postal service.

If you sent anything, unless you disguised it to be something really boring looking, it wouldn't make it to you, never, in a million years.

Magazines, NO! Birthday cards? hell no! It'd be stolen by the postal workers and sold, by the kilo to wrap things in.

Street markets selling old underwear for re-use as cleaning cloths.... that's a whole other thread....

..OP's currently backed into an expat forum corner, being napalmed and snarled at by those 'living the dream'

bedubabe · 05/10/2010 11:48

:) I know that forum. She's definately being napalmed.

Although to be honest there's a world of difference between the GCC and some of the countries others are mentioning.

[romantacised dreaming about living somewhere 'challenging' again] :o