to think that most welsh people should speak some welsh

[mumof2children]

i am no way fluent in welsh by know very basic welsh.

but sould more welsh people speak some welsh

Bugger

Can I launch my own language known as 'typing whilst breastfeeding half asleep toddler and being a shite typist'? [

Culture has nothing to with nationality.

After all, there is no word for Hiraeth in English...

This is the main point to me. I'm English (with ancestry from a lot of different countries, none of which has bequeathed me a particular language due to assimilation). I live in England. I am never likely to absolutely need Welsh to communicate. But every language, no matter how few people speak it is a window on the world. Every language has its own ways of thinking and expressing and being and its own unique way of lighting up its own culture, and every language should be preserved as far as is possible, even if sadly some of the time that means preserving it in books because we don't have native speakers to illuminate their own little corner of human thought for us.

It makes me sad that some people think that a language is ever worth losing. It doesn't matter if it's a language that hardly anyone speaks. You're not just preserving the language itself, you're preserving a culture and way of thinking that might not be possible to preserve if the people concerned are all communicating in a different language.

What does hiraeth mean, btw?

I'm currently having an extension built by some extremely charming Romanian builders and enjoying building up a working knowledge of how to offer cups of coffee, biscuits, doughnuts and iced water in Romanian. I don't suppose I shall ever visit Romania unless I suddenly and unexpectedly gain a lot of free time and money, but it's FUN. And it means that my builders who are all a long way from home, haven't been over here for long and mainly rather bad at English are enjoying their time here and realising that not all English people are totally uninterested in any culture but their own. I see it as my little bit of reaching out to other cultures and ambassadoring for Britain, actually, poncetastic as that sounds.

I sincerely hope that were I ever to live in Wales I'd do my very best to pick up a decent smattering of Welsh. Even if you don't need it and even if you can only say hello and thank you and goodbye, it's still worthwhile.

As an aside to the 'Is Wales a country?' point , the correct answer to the question 'How many countries are there?' is 'No one knows.'

As there is no universally agreed definition and not all countries recognise all other countries.

Kosovo is a country according to the United States, Turkey, Albania, Austria, Germany, Italy, France, the United Kingdom, the Republic of China (Taiwan),[107] Australia, Poland and others).

According to Russia, Russian satellite states and China it isn't.

The UN and the EU have no official position on it, though kind of recognise it.

Similarly Tibet is a country according to some and not others.

Horton you sound like my Dad; where he works is mainly POlish workers and they ahev a high Englaih turnover becuase Englsih staff say tehy feel outnumbered and unable to understand the language etc; Dad bought himself some books and learned the basics. he now gets invited to weddings etc and has a right old time he could ahve missed out on.

'Culture has nothing to with nationality.'

True, it's about a sense of belonging. It's quite possible to acquire a culture when you move in, or not have one if you were born there.

Your dad sounds lovely, Sancti.

We're planning to invite all the builders to the extension warming party and they're so nice it would be a crime not to. And I've lost count of the times they've told me how on other jobs people don't offer drinks or snacks or talk to them etc. What's happened to the world? Just because someone can't speak very good English, it doesn't mean you should stop trying to make some kind of human connection with them. And you never know, you might learn something in the process, and so might they.

I like the idea of culture being a sense of belonging and think it is exactly right. Part of belonging is being able to reach out to other human beings, isn't it? If you can't talk to them, you can't really do that.

Wales is not a country. I've already explained why. I need more than "you're wrong + " to convince me otherwise.

I suppose you could call it a country with a small "c" but it has no passport, no boarder controls, no government, no armed forces, no law making body, no seat on the UN, no embassies, no monarchy etc etc. The actual definition of a "country" isn't defined formally no, but Wales meets none of the usual criteria - other than perhaps having its own sports teams. You may as well call Northumberland a country - god knows there's as much mining heritage up there as in Wales and the dialect in places can be as thick so that it may as well be a language of its own.

I don't particularly care if people chose to speak Welsh or not but it seems a bit of a waste of time to learn a language that - outside of a very small part of the UK - is completely pointless. It also seems perverse to spend £Xmillion to print and sign post everything in a language that is spoken by less than 1% of the UK population (and that definition is anything from fluent first language level to "I'd like a pound of ham potatoes please") when 99.99% of that 1% already speak the official language of the UK.

As I've said if it were my choice for purely utilitarian reasons I'd chose to learn French or Spanish. If I was choosing a language for the sheer love of it it would be Latin.

So England is not a country either then? It's Britain which has the passport controls etc...?

That's correct. Its (for the umpteenth time) the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Apparently, DF, by those criteria.

In answer to riven I don't speak Welsh but culture I do know. These are items of Welsh culture many are found in other areas but are things the Welsh are proud of:

St David a patron saint we celebrate him on march 1st on st David day.

The Leek and Daffodil St david advised to wear leeks on their caps to tell Friend before batteling the saxons. The Daffodil may be because it is a similar word in Welsh to a leek Cenhinen is a leek and Cenhinen pedr is a daffodil I think

Dylan Thomas famous Welsh poet

Welsh lovespoons

Welsh dragon obviously as he is on our flag

There are loads more but I would have to think hard and I am sure you are not that interested. Ohh I remember welsh Suit fairly well known one.

Yes.

Our national anthem which I can sing and know word for word.

They speak Welsh in parts of Argentina btw (glass of wine random fact there)

And Hiraeth means (I believe) that feeling of longing in your heart you feel when you miss home. ish.

No, you've explained why you believe it isn't a country. Who are you to define it as anything else?

Wales has a government, a flag, a language and people. Passports are irrelevant - we al hold British passports; by your logic, England isn't a country either. Ditto border controls and armed forces.

To use your other ridiculous analogy, Northumberland does not have a flag, an anthem, a language, a government.

As for the insult - well, your spurious logic is incredibly insulting. But of course, you know that.

To repeat myself from earlier:

"The closest Wales gets is part of the legal entity called 'England and Wales' created by the Laws in Wales Acts implemented between 1535 to 1542."

Wales does not have a government. The Welsh assembly is not a government - they have no law making or tax raising powers. It's a consultative body at best - a sop to the nationalist nutters that seems to crop up when you have an area that feels hard done by. I have distinct memories of some fruitloops from the local of the pit village I lived in many years ago that said pretty much the same thing about their little area of Northumberland.

And I've already explained, England isn't a country - Britain is or to repeat myself again; to give it it's proper name: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You seem to be saying that because Wales has a flag and a national anthem that makes it a country. Well tonight I'm make my own anthem and flag tonight and henceforth declare my own country. Will that do?

The general definition of state hood seems to be who recognises you as such. Please tell me; how many embassies are there in Cardiff?

Owain and Jasper Tudor were Welsh yes. Henry VII's mum Margaret Beaufort was one of the illegitimate descendants of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford. Their claim to the throne was highly dubious!

When I go home to Wales, I really notice the difference between it and England in that, for example, people in the pub would think nothing of having an impromptu sing song, often singing Welsh songs, whereas in England, people shuffle uncomfortably and blush when expected to sing in public. Ever been to a twmpath? Very good fun. The passion aroused by a rugby match, with a warm welcome to visitors, is something else. Bizarre dialect - when someone is ill they're poorly bad 'n' dying under the doctor. I'm not saying regional quirks are unique to Wales - far from it and these are what makes Britain brilliant - but they are Welsh. I agree with the poster who said that perhaps England's culture are peculiar to the regions such as the south west and north east. Wales though has the added dimension of the language :)

Quite feenie- it would be an interesting topic to engage with execept not really with someone who thinks them explaining their POV automatically makes it right. Life's too short.

However Windward, you are of course free to believe as you choose: as I am free to believe otherwise.

It doesn't matter anyway about whether it's country in terms of langauge or culture: theya re not exclusively linked to those areas. If it were, the people using the very many languages of India as an example might be a bit confused! it's not even about it being a country for administrative purposes: the UK is already divided into administrative regions, most countries are, it could easily be an umbrella term for that.

I don't think it is, though: and I wouldn;t want to be the one standing in Wales trying to sell teh idea to the locals either. hey ho.

Actually bugger it. I don't care at all. It's mildly diverting but the bottle of wine is approaching the end and I hear my bed calling for me.

Wales is - like pretty much everywhere else I've been to in the UK (with the possible exception of Middlesborough - sorry) a bloody marvellous place with much to be proud of and one of the reasons why Britain is the fantastic country it is. It's just a shame this "small man syndrome" seems to rear it's head every time someone mentions Welsh on here...

LooktoWindward you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about Wales for some reason. "Nationalist nutters" are really not the same as patriots you know, and it's important to know the difference.

The so-called Acts of Union in the 1530s were an attempt by Henry VIII to subdue the pesky country to the left. He imposed a single system of laws, and thus began a system which almost criminalised the Welsh for being Welsh. Politically it became England and Wales, with the Wales bit being conveniently left off most of the time, and the dragon eventually being left off the Union flag when it came into being. This is one reason why the Welsh are keen to assert their identity. Wales had already been conquered in a military sense by Edward I in the thirteenth century, which was thoroughly inevitable given the disparity in size, population and wealth of the two countries.

Yes you're English and don't think much of Wales. Get over it.

i Hiraeth means (I believe) that feeling of longing in your heart you feel when you miss home. ish.

Ah, that's nice. A pretty word for a good feeling. Different from homesickness, then? It sounds more positive than that, which is exactly what I meant about a window on the world.

the whole is it a country thing is just not relevant anyway, is it. Not to the issue of language? Welsh is the language of Wales even if people don't generally speak it. Given the historic reasons why people don't speak it it's understandable really... and a shame whatever way you look at it.

The question of if it is a country DOES matter to the OP as it goes to the definition of Welsh. 'Should people who happen to live within a specific geographic area speak a certain language?' is a totally different question to 'Should those who feel part of a particular culture speak a language associated with that culture?'

She didn;t say speak just that language though did she? the word some changes it: goes from being an exclusive dictatrial style you MUST speak Welsh to most people should speak some (becuase it's good to understand each other and to have a link to the culture)

She even says herself she only knows basic Welsh. And I am very far from fluent but sometimes it's nice to be able to say Diolch if someone who is speaking Welsh opens a door or whatever; someone recently did stop and help ds3 wash his ahnds in a toilet when I was drying mine. It was a mixed langauge area and you can't tell what DS3 speaks (austistic, very unclear if you don't know him) but it was nice to be able to say thanks in the langauge she was using.

Indeed, I wish I could understand more languages: Latin, Arabic, Hebrew and Sanskrit would all have come in very handy indeed in the last few years. I certainly would never wish the boys studied less than they do.

'Culture has nothing to with nationality.'

Why not? It has to some people.