Should I not say anything?

[happychappy]

Bear with me this is long. My sister is crazy mad in love. Great but he's an idiot. He's 35 never worked and they have been living with my Mum and Dad. She's just finished her degree. My dad's been giving them money to live on and living rent free in the family home. To make matter worse they had a child, which I am very happy she is here but perhaps a few years later would have been better. Perhaps when one one them have worked for more than five minutes. He's an artist and Romanian. He thinks he can work as an artist in Romania and has taken them both off to Romania, to live on the 9th floor in a block of flats. In a two bedroom apartment, shared with the blind grandmother and the arthritic mother. Mother works, they are now living off her. My sister doesn't speak Romanian and has a 5 months old daughter and no friends in the area. We are justifiably concerned not least because the boyfriend has been driving wedges between my mother and my other sister and her. He hasn't with me because I don't live in the UK and don't register as a thread (I think). She very dependent anyway.

He's orthodox, and wants to marry. Two weeks after arriving my sister has got herself and her daughter baptised. She hasn't told any of her family before, didn't invite or even say. She still hasn't told my mother she was baptised. I'm hurt. I would have very much liked to have been there or at least invited. We don't even know who the godparents are plus she said I quote 'it was lovely like being part of a community'. Surely our first community is that of our families. I'm speechless, hurt and scared to say anything in case I upset her and she decides to close our relationship. This is what the boyfriend is working towards.

Advice, sorry I know its long.......
Not so happychappy

Btw, do you know if they are Old or New Calendar? (If this means nothing to you don't worry!)

It means nothing, tell me about it Little Red Dragon. You are spot on btw.

She doesn't know whether she's going to stay or not, for a year at least and see how it goes. She wants to finish her study in the UK so hopefully she will (all things crossed)

happy, it means, do they celebrate Christmas on the 25th, like us, or on the 7th January.

What I reckon is, if they celebrate on the 7th, your sister and her husband will be very pleased to get Christmas wishes on that day, so they might be less defensive. It does sound as if your sister is being quite defensive, and no good comes from challenging her.

I do hope it goes ok - I think you are in a really difficult position. And you are right to carry on playing the difficult role and looking out for your sister. But, she may still end up happy, and she may always stay with this guy.

For us, DH has Christmas on Jan. 7th. He has to fast (ie., no meat, no dairy, no alcohol) through the month before. This means he has those dietary restrictions on the 25th, so he can't eat what we do for a Christmas meal.

When I first met DH, he was very strict and insisted he'd eat none of our Christmas meal. He felt he had to, because otherwise we wouldn't have understood that his religion was important to him. Now, though, he just gets a dispensation from his priest, and eats more or less what we eat.

I do think your sister may get bored of very strict Orthodoxy quite soon, but there's no sense telling her that! Better to invite her home for Christmas and tell her there will be lots of food she and her man can eat, maybe?

It all depends on whether this is all cultural misunderstanding or whether you think he is controlling and deliberately cutting her off from her family.

If it's the latter it could be a rough ride and you may need to be there to pick up the pieces at some future date...

fasting over Christmas, OMG. That'll be really hard for her. She not fat at all but she does like her food. For her not drinking wouldn't be a problem, come to think of it the meat either just the cheese and dairy stuff.

What else is different, she said the Priest can marry and divorce is accepted. When I asked the difference thats what she said

Here in Italy the 6th is a big festival too so thats cool. I don't know if they will have the money to go back to the UK, If he's not working....

happy, one can usually get a dispensation from the priest to break the fast.

The ideas on divorce are normal - they actually pre-date the Catholic idea that divorce is bad.

The thing is, in my (very limited) experience, Orthodoxy is very flexible - but you have to know who to ask. I could never be Orthodox, it would drive me nuts! But if your sister feels this way, I guess it helps to know the ins and outs of the religion she now wants to be part of.

OP, there is a phrase in one of your posts that bothers me:

Sorry, but she baptised her daughter, something she has every right to do without telling you.

As you seem to be quite religious yourself, maybe she thought you wouldn't approve of her converting to the Orthodox faith?

You also say that she has no friends in Romania, and then you complain that she described the experience of joining the church as being part of a community and get upset that she is putting community before family? She is trying to settle in to her new lifestyle and you should be pleased that she has found something that she feels is a community instead of getting so upset that you weren't invited.

You don't like the BF, you don't like her lifestyle choice, you don't approve of the fact that they chose to have a child before either of them had "worked for 5 minutes", you don't seem to like her changing her faith ...

You don't own her, you can't run her life and if you want to keep a relationship with her you have to start looking for the positives and supporting her. All that disapproval will be seeping through the ether, even if you don't realise it.

I know what you mean. I drop everything for family but I do feel that they do not reciprocate at all and I feel that they mean more to me than I do to them sometimes. It hurts a lot!

TBH I would stop doing quite so much. I know its hard. My brothers and sister are all away and as they get older it looks unlikely they will stay in this part of the country at all. I have no idea how much I will ever see of them in the future and it breaks my heart. There isn't anything I wouldn't do for them but I don't feel that it is a 2 way thing.

Waltons, thank you, not quite sure how to responds to your comments, however here goes. Perhaps I haven't explain myself clearly enough. I don't own and have never tried to even direct her in any way. I love her and am scared for her because she is getting into something she doesn't understand (not the religion thing) but the relationship with this man. He seems to be trying to isolate and absorb her into his family and deliberately trying to exclude hers and with small comments always undermining the relationships with her friends and family. She is increasingly isolated and this event is another extension of this.

She is free to do as she pleases but at this moment I see she is doing as he pleases. With a new baby she is sooo vulnerable. She has told me she is frightened he will leave her and she seems so dependent and he seems so determined to cut our ties to her.

From speaking to my Mum and my other sister is seems I am the only person she speaks to about her relationship with him. Precisely because I don't comment or interfere(So Walton you're way off there). and I am the person most scared for her but....

my fear is if I don't say something along the lines of

I was very hurt not to have been there because you are my family and I love you, and the past is the past please allow me to be part of your and yours daughters life in future. I am here for you good and bad and the baptism was one of the good things.

I will lose her. In my heart I know this is a crossroads for us all. Which is why I'm am less than sure as to my next move.

happychappy, I have a lot of respect for you. I posted that because I felt that I should "test" your thinking. I thought very long and hard before posting, and almost didn't, but it kept bugging me!

I wasn't suggesting that you comment or interfere, because you have made it quite clear that you don't. What I sense is that your negative feelings (which I fear are probably quite justified) will be coming across to her. A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps not congratulating her on being baptised, maybe not sending a baptismal gift for her daughter as a spontaneous gesture ...

I don't know what you have and haven't done, but if your sister senses that you don't approve of her DP and her life choices then she will talk to him about that. I fear that even though you have not said anything directly, she will sense your lack of approval simply because you are feeling hurt at not being invited, consulted, etc.

She will then talk to her DP, he will then feel even more justified in thinking that her family are "all against him" and attempt to cut her off from you even further.

I really, really would not make any "big statements" such as the one you suggest. Your hurt at not being invited is for you to deal with, and for her sake (and the sake of your relationship with her) you have to keep it locked away.

Send an appropriate baptismal gift for her DD (maybe a MNetter from the Orthodox faith can suggest something?) and start to really live her small successes in settling in to her new life.

If it all goes wrong she will need you. If it all goes right you will have been part of a fascinating journey.

Maybe, a few years from now, you will know enough about why you (and the family) were not invited, but if not, does it really matter? If a "big statement" could derail your relationship with her for the rest of your life, is it really worth doing? My fear is that if you DO say something along the lines that you are suggesting, you will quite definitely lose her!

May I just ask one last question? Is she the youngest of the 3 of you?

You have said that she is "very dependent". Maybe disappearing to Romania is actually because she is trying to be less dependent on you and the rest of the family? It's a tough thing to come to terms with, but if that might be the case, you may have a real role to play in helping her to develop wings and fly in her new life.

I think you should say what you want to say, as per your last message.

And then you just have to monitor the situation really. If he is a controlling so and so then she has to work that out for herself ultimately.

Say your piece and then watch from the sidelines and don't allow ties to be cut.

happy, the way you describe it, it is very tough. Ideally, you need to be very interested in her life, very supportive of her, while still making it clear to her that she can always call on you if it all goes badly wrong with her partner. So, maybe being very interested in her child, or her religion, or her new life, would be good - whilst not commenting too much on her partner (after all, you don't feel you can say anything positive about him!). If you show her you're really fond of her children and want news of them, you'll keep communication open if and when she needs it.

I would just say, though, that this new distance from the family that you're seeing, may not feel like a bad thing to her. If she's been wanting to get away from a particular family member for years, a partner who's willing to provide her with a whole new community could feel great.

Good point Red dragon,

I wouldn't say I see nothing good in him, he is intelligent, creative, very sensitive, however on the flip side he is very traditional (in a bad way) and uncompromising and can come across as very hard. I don't know if he is. He feels he should be in control and therefore takes no prisoners on this point. He is very direct, which my sister is not. I have not problem with direct in fact I like direct as you can probably see I am too.

He can also be very strange; he gave my 7 year old a switch blade! (My son obviously loved it and it was a good idea; if it hadn't have been dangerous) He told my sister he won't change any nappies or bath my niece because when she is older she will feel strange that he has seen her private area (top marks for inventive excuses; my husband wishes he'd had thought of that one) and many more very funny/odd moments. There are many more of these stories.

However she loves him and so....

My primary difficulty is more about how my sister is with men in general. This is her fourth boyfriend and she is a very dependent personality. But I cannot change that. Further, he seems to have manipulated her into a country which she doesn't like (in fact last year when she was there for the summer she told me she hated everything about it) and in a very vulnerable position (no income and completely dependent on him and his family for everything including communicating. It feels somewhat like he is a puppet master and her brain has ceased functioning. Further he seems to be trying to create situations where she has to choose between him and his family.

This is part of the reason I feel I should/must say something in a non confrontation way. I am really the only person that can at this point because relations between the rest of the family is so extremely strained to the point nothing can be said. I am the only person he hasn't shown a dislike for and tried to cut ties with!

I feel if I let this go and keep quiet she will gradually exclude us all. This is the first time she has excluded me as well. I feel I must say something because

1. it is not about him, he is not involved and therefore I am not attacking him
2. I am saying you must keep communicating with me because I love you and accept you decisions regardless of my opinion and you can always depend on me (I have rescued her from other situations in the past)
3. I am being true to myself, my feelings and this is the basis of good relationships (IMO)

further she can then trust the words that come out of my mouth.

BTW she not the baby, the baby is very feisty and independent, In fact my mother told her to lay off her boyfriend last week. It funny the three of us are all so very different, apart from looks you wouldn't know we are sisters.

goodness that was a long post

Could you not go and visit her ? Perhaps she would find it easier to talk face to face you might see if she really is happy or not?

It must be a difficult situation for your sister - no income, new baby, no friends etc. - even if her BF was Mr Perfect Bloke, I think it would still be difficult. Would she be able to leave if she ever wanted to ? (not saying she should or anything!) Maybe it's not worth having a disagreement about the baptism at the moment, so that she feels able to talk to you if she needs to? Especially if relations are difficult between her and the rest of your family.

There's nowhere fore me to stay, I could sleep with the mother in law on the sofa? lol

Can you not stay in a hotel?

I can really see why you are worried. But a lot of the things you describe sound like cultural differences. It may be that this man has simply grown up in a culture where he expects not to change nappies, where he expects his word to be law - and perhaps where he doesn't expect to see his sister-in-law as an equal? Not nice for you if this is true, but the point is, he may not be a naturally 'nasty' or 'controlling' person, but simply one who's acting out his upbringing.

I'm concerned about your reasoning:
You think you must say something because she's 'excluded' you from the baptism. But that might not be quite what you think. You feel you must say something because the rest of the family have been shut out - but what happens if you are pushed away too? You think he's manipulated her into a situation where she's very unhappy - but you admit she's 'crazy in love'.

It is difficult but if you can, I'd really urge you to go gently.

Okay, I'll think on it. I haven't spoken to her for about a week. this is unusual for us.

Good luck. Hope it goes well.

thank you

Just a quick update

Spoke to her yesterday, She found and made friends with a few mums, which is great. Seems a bit happier on that side of things

She's still feeling very insecure about her new surroundings and a lot frustrating with the space thing and the MIL and GMIL. apparently they keep interfering with everything and fussy a lot. I said that was a generational thing. BF is saying just ignore it.

They have to leave there for at least a year. I don't know if she will endure that! She's seems very upset by it all.

Given all that I decided to leave well alone. She's got enough problems.

That is good she is making friends. I think all you can do is make sure she knows that you are absolutely there for her.

Just keep phoning her for a chat - perhaps ring a bit more frequently. Lots of sympathising passing no judgement and minimal comment. Just aim to be kept in the loop of how she is and so that she knows you are there for her?

You're being a supportive sister which is great.