To think that the best non selective comps are really selective?

[Cortina]

Thinking about GCSE results at the following non selective state schools:

Thomas Telford that got 46% A/A, Dame Alice Owen, 67% A/A, Parminters, 53% A/A, Watford Grammar for Girls 67% A/A, St Aidan's Harrogate, 59% A/A, Lady Margaret, 60% A/A, Hasmonean High, 55% A/A, King David High 55% A/A, JFS, Kenton, 50% A/A, Thomas Telford 98% A-C including English and maths, 46% A/A, Cardinal Vaughan, 57% A/A, St John the Baptist, Kingfield, 51% A/A, Camden for girls 44% A/A*.

These are impressive results for non selective comps! If really the case then perhaps these are the schools we should consider moving house for?

"Thomas Telford that got 46% A/A*"

Knowing something about that school (an acquaintance's daughter is there) it's comprehensive in the sense that Marie Antoinette is a shepherdess. It's in (unsurprisingly) Telford, yet its catchment area extends to Wolverhampton (look at a map, and note the large amount of the M54 running between the two towns), with buses plying their way between the towns town and city. Look at the application form, which states

"As indicated in the Rules of Admission, the School will admit those students who, in
the Headmaster?s judgement, are most likely to benefit from the education on offer at
the School and who have the strongest motivation to succeed.

Please provide in the space below any additional information that you think
demonstrates the applicant?s motivation to succeed"

and then invites you to "assessment sessions". It's a grammar school, pure and simple, and worse, not just an exam of the child's ability (which is bad enough) but an exam to check the parents are the right sort of parents. Given that it is, in all but name, a grammar school, its results are nothing to write home about: by daughters' school got 78% A/A*, because it's a grammar school, and I don't think in reality much less selective than TT.

It's also worth noting (although I don't know if this is still relevant) that they are the school that pioneers the "it's worth lots of GCSEs, honest" IT Diplomas, which massively distort exam results.

"Thomas Telford 98% A-C including English and maths"

For comparison, the best comprehensive in Birmingham - which benefited for many years, including the recent GCSE cohort, from a 10% "selected by aptitude for languages" dispensation and which draws from an extremely stable demographic - manages 73%. The best comprehensive in Solihull, which is the white-flight-rich suburb, manages 93%, with (by repute) a fairly carefully managed intake. The super-selectives manage 99% or 100%.

As I say, it's a grammar in all but name.

Very interesting tokyo, I imagined that the majority of these high performing comps weren't really comps.

Thomas Telford is according to the league tables the 'best' comp in the country as 98% get A-C in GCSEs which include maths and english.

I wonder which of the schools mentioned really are truly 'comprehensive'?

Harrogate has several excellent comprehensives, St Aidans being the leading one. I'd always put that down to the population of the town as a whole.

? Some on that list ARE selective

They are not listed as selective as far as the published academic league tables go. I think partially academic selective can't count.

I am only familiar with Watford Grammar and Parmiters, and they are both partially selective. WG selects 35% of their intake, I am not sure of the number for Parmiters. All the older children in our street seem to be at Parmiters so they are non-selective in that sense here.

Thanks, megapixels. Is anyone familiar with these schools - as regards their apparent non selective status?

Other top non selective comps are:

Coopers' Company and Coborn: 42% A/A*
Hockerill College, Bishops Stortford, 51% A/A*
Old Swinford Hospital, 41% A/A*
St George's, Harpenden, 40% A/A*
London Oratory, 46% A/A*
Arden, Knowle, 40% A/A*
Gordon's, Woking 44% A/A*
Hasmonean High, Hendon, 55% A/A*
Coloma Convent, 43% A/A*
St Edwards Coll, Sandfield Park, 45% A/A*
St Pauls RC Coll, 39% A/A*
Cardiff High 37% A/A*
Chellaston, Derby, 28% A/A*
Littleover Comm, Derby, 31% A/A*
Whitley Bay High, 28% A/A*
Graveney, Tooting, 45% A/A*
Herts and Essex High, 42% A/A*
Holt, Wokingham, 46% A/A*
Lady Manners, Bakewell, 41% A/A*
Newlands Girls', Maidenhead 30% A/A*
Pershore High, Worcs, 62% A/A*
St Philomena's, Carshalton, 46% A/A*
Waldegrave, Twickenham 50% A/A*
Theale Green, Reading 49% A/A*
Copthall, Mill Hill, 74% A/A*

"Thomas Telford is according to the league tables the 'best' comp in the country"

Looking at the admission process, it quite clearly isn't a comprehensive school. Dame Alice Owen isn't, either: "Originally founded in 1613, it is Voluntary Aided in status and admits children across the ability range. 65 children per year out of the available 200 places, however, are selected according to aptitude and ability as determined by the Governors' Entrance Examination and an additional 10 places are selected by Music Aptitude tests."

So it's loading the dice, with 75 out of 200 places reserved for various forms of selection.

I suspect many of the others are overtly or covertly similar.

Hmmm. So I was right in thinking that these non selective comps are by and large selective in one way or another?

Be interested to know how many, with the good academic results, are truly comprehensive.

Thomas Telford at least is selective in all but name, actually I think it is probably more selective than the grammar school I attended! At the grammar everyone sat the same entrance tests (verbal and non verbal reasoning) and the top 96 were given places. At TT they check on your "motivations" and I'm fairly sure they check your academic ability. They also check to make sure the parents are "the right kind of people".

Schools do fiddle this sometimes. The academy near me is bragging about how it has improved the lives of the local children (old high school shut down for consistently awful pass rates and behaviour), in actual fact it changed its catchment area and entry criteria so the same children are not admitted (It does test academically now to ensure a "wide range of abilities"). All of the poorer estates are now out of catchment. They were left to another local sink school (which is currently being shut down for the same reasons). The figures can't always be taken at face value.

I read that Thomas Telford also encourage children to take GCSEs up to two years early and almost two third complete English and maths at 15.

They are also apparently planning to introduce degree courses for sixth formers.

Tooting Graveney is partially selective: 63 out of 250 places go to those scoring highest on Wandsworth's yr6 test (11+ by any other name?)

The point is, all this stuff is easy to fiddle if you're in a fiddling mood. Look at the Thomas Telford metrics:

[[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/education/09/school_tables/secondary_schools/html/894_6900.stm TT Details

The KS2 to KS4 CVA measures how much "extra" the school is doing at GCSE compared to entrance to the school, and is supposedly a measure of the quality of the teaching. In principle, it should be independent of fiddling with the intake: it's (roughly) GCSE results divided by KS2 SATs of the intake, normalised. 1000 means the kids did as well at GCSE as would have been predicted from their SATSs.

Now 1030 is pretty damn good: my daughters' grammar school manages 1006, the comp I went to 1003, having gone from beacon school to special measures over twenty five years (apres moi, le deluge) and currently emerging from that with flying colours. Birmingham's best-performing comp in terms of results get 990, which implies that they've actually reduced the performance of the pupils over five years.

So 1030 is very good. But look how they've done it. By getting the parents to submit to testing of their enthusiasm, motivation and loyalty to the school, they are able to get the "best" out of the pupils with a given level. Some of the areas they draw from are pretty ropy, too, so they're able to do a very good trawl of the rough diamonds - a more effective trawl than the super-selectives, in a way, who just get the brightest and most heavily tutored. Neat. The super-selectives get heavily tutored children, and it's hard to tutor for the 11+ in November of Y6 and not by accident improve results in June Y6, so the selectives do badly on Value Add. The places that select by more hole and corner methods, however, don't have children arriving who have been tutored, and can then add the value in Y7 rather than it already having been added in Y6. Result: excellent CVA.

Interesting, thanks.

Well they are not grammars because only a percentage is taken from the higher ability levels and this percentage is limited by the government. Some also Some are taken from the lowest centile for ability too. They are not true comprehensives either though since some selection has occurred and this has knock-on effects over time which are not obvious - eg there will be a sibling policy.

It is hard for grammars/selective schools to add a lot of "value" to children who are already flying in year 6 for whatever reason. Verbal/non-verbal reasoning testing, where it occurs, aims to look at ability stripped of the value added by tutoring.

As for the selecting of supportive parents - well the children of supportive parents outperform those of non-supportive ones. 'Twas ever thus.

I'm not sure we can criticize the schools for taking advantages of rules and exceptions to rules. In a number of cases above (possibly most, I don't know all the schools) these preferential admissions policies were put in place about 20 years or so ago by the then Conservative Government who offered them to a limited number of comprehensive schools. this move was greeted with dismay by neighbouring schools who became that little bit less comprehensive as a result of the selection of the top end.

It is all a bit of a nightmare and I think the whole school entry process and the choosing of examination courses in later years is, for most people, like playing a game when you don't know the rules - and often don't realise that there are any rules you should have learned until too late.

Cardinal Vaughn is Catholic and very difficult to get in to (as is the Oratory). I think - could be wrong on this - that they're boy only.

Lady Margaret is CofE and also banded (like Graveney, takes certain percentile of different abilities), girls only, also very difficult to get into.

Graveney, as has been said, is partly selected and also has a very small catchment.

None of these four is a comprehensive in the original sense ie, just taking the children from the feeder primaries/within catchment and absolutely no assessment of any kind.

The only comps in this sense near us are both in special measures.

Gordon's has a tiny catchment of day pupils. You are most likely to get in if your parents are in the military.

Can any one tell me how to find out the league table position of Bishop Heber School in Malpas in Cheshire?It is a 'real' comp and one where my ggc will probably go.

You mention Theale Green in Reading on your second list. Theale Green is non-selective - anyone can get in there, often from outside of the catchment area also as it's not over subscribed. There are no assessments and no crtieria other than catchment area etc. I don't know anyone who has applied to Theale who hasn't got in and I also know people from outside of the catchment who have applied and got in with no problem.

Results here

Comparison with other schools in that area [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/education/09/school_tables/secondary_schools/html/896.stm here]]

Try again

Comparison with other schools in that area 9/schooltables/secondaryschools/html/896.stm here

One more time!!

Comparison with other schools in that area here

Well if you look at house prices in Harrogate that tells you how the schools there select.

"It is hard for grammars/selective schools to add a lot of "value" to children who are already flying in year 6"

Not true. The Y6 SATs are 'capped' to a certain level - Level 5 IIRC - so a really clever/Grammar child will be given a score below their real ability at KS2 but can appear to add value if they go on to get their (expected) quadzillion A* at GCSE.