to think that university is not such a good idea these days?

[StuckInTheMiddleWithYou]

Sort of a spin off from another thread..

However I am really starting to think that university is for many, a great big con.

I and many of my friends have good degrees. Most of us are in fairly crappy dead end jobs, admin, temping, door-to-door sales etc. Often working alongside people with very little education but far less debt.

So, is university a con for all but Oxbridge graduates, doctors and other vocational courses?

I think so.

it really depends on what you want to do, you are not going to work for merck/ciba-geigy/lilly doing research etc with just gcses

on the other hand, doing a history degree with no real idea of what you want to do after or where it is likely to lead you, and then ending up heavily in debt working in a call centre, not so great

University is a lot more of a normal route now, so people a lot of people have degrees. So out has gone the idea of only a select number (graduates) are available for certain jobs. One one side, its fantastic that there are courses to appeal to almost everyone.

On the other, it means a hell of a lot of people leave with a First and are unemployed.

I would still love to go (when I am well enough), but am very relieved in a lot of ways I'm not leaving uni in the next few years.

I don't have much current experience, and definitely felt my degree was "worth" having when I graduated 18 years ago .

But that was in the days before tuition fees, and when you could just about get through without working or acquiring debt if you were careful and you either got a grant or equivalent from your parents.

Like you I get the impression that a degree is now only worth having:
a) if you desire to go into a career which requires one, or
b) if you are clever enough to get into one of the top universitys (not just Oxbridge) or
c) a nice luxury if your parents can afford to support you.

I agree, Isitme. It is truly sad that our education system is being devalued like this.

Even when I applied (1999) there were BA/BSc courses with entry requirements as low as two E grades...

What is the point in that exactly?

otoh i think one of the great things about the uk is that it is possible to leave education without doing any further postsecondary stuff, start a job and work your way up

i think we ought to really fight to retain this and encourage it

where i am from there are few non minimum wage jobs that don't require some sort of postsecondary qualification, and having achieved the equivalent of a full set of a levels isn't regarded as a real achievement, but something everybody does

I was going to reply to this saying I'm doing medicine which is definately not pointless but I do see your point for some degrees.

I would say a degree from a good university is worth having. I have lots of friends graduating this year and walking into 30+k jobs. Nearly everyone from my uni gets offers, and usually very well paid ones, but that's because it is well respected by employers. I think employers look at where a degree is from above anything else, and as a result people with degrees from less well respected unis are really missing out atm.

What do you define as a "good" university though?

Just Oxbridge? Russell group?

It all just seems like a self-perpetuating cash cow for the uni staff these days. I feel sorry for anybody graduating in the next few years.

The problem is that the vast majority of teenagers with decent numeracy and literacy do have degrees now. I've been involved in recruitment for junior office jobs (with the possibility of really good advancement in the long term), which don't require a degree, but do require a brain and the ability to read, write and do sums really confidently.

Fifteen years ago those would be A level jobs, but nowadays, in practice, almost anyone who's got the ability to do the job will be going to university - so it's much more practical for HR to specify it as a graduate job, in order to weed out the unsuitable applicants. The old system was arguably much more efficient, but it's impossible for a single student or employer to fight the trend, only a mass movement back in the other direction can do that.

When I left college I went to uni to study for a Diploma in Midwifery - that was obviously worth going to uni for to me as there was a career at the end of it. Unfortunately I quit halfway through, wasn't mature enough to handle it at 18/19yo. Then decided I would give computing a stab and started a foundation year so I could access the degree itself.

Got pregnant toward the end of the foundation year and never went back for the degree. Best thing I ever did!! I now work for my local council in a job I love which isn't particularly highly paid but I feel is a good wage for me and enables me to work part-time. DH didn't even finish college and has worked for the council as well for the last 20 years, again, wage not phenomenal but together we have a decent income (c£25k) and have managed to buy a our own property and provide very well for our 2 DCs - they don't want for anything but there is budgeting involved.

The way my life has turned out has convinced me the Uni isn't be all and end all for a decent career but. My Dsis did a degree in fashion or something like that - she has had several jobs ranging from retail, office/admin and HR - I don't feel the degree has done any wonders for her earning potential tbh.

There should (and is) a range of degrees, courses, certificates, appreniceships - all serve their purpose and different people will be better suited to different paths to access the career of their choice and shouldn't automatically be pushed towards uni.

I think university isn't a sensible option for as many currently go. I don't want to be all doom and gloom - lots of reasons why university is great, but it's not even true that Oxbridge grads automatically get good jobs. One of my best mates got a very good 2.1 and has now been a teaching assistant for nearly four years. She's quite happy and I expect she's good at her job, but she admits the degree has so far been a complete waste. I also know a lot of people who've had to retrain in order to do what they wanted to do.

University isn't any kind of magic door to a job, really it's not.

Shitty grammar in that post, sorry!

So many jobs are graduate jobs now though. I'm doing maths at the moment (not oxbridge but another uni high in the university rankings) and nearly all banking and data analysis jobs are degree entry only. I'd rather not end up with the debt i'm going to get but its a sacrifice worth making IMO to get the career I want. Having said that some degrees are fairly worthless for the majority of people on the course (thinking about a psychology student I know who plans to work in her dads shop )

Why blame the degrees and the universities for people not putting in the effort to get more than a low-level job?

There's no reason why, if people are prepared to travel/move home why they have to do a crappy job when they graduate.

It's always been a tradition that university students don't stay in their home towns and look all over Britain (if not the world) for work. Why should people who graduate now feel they are entitled to a local job?

Nothing "opens the door" for anyone. They have to work at finding something suitable.

I'm in the middle if an economics degree now, I think to work within economics it is vital to have a degree as there are so many theories etc.
I've already been offered a position for next year, you have to make sure your work is outstanding and treat it as a full time job, I also volunteer/work for the uni and have so many contacts that put me forward/recommend me for things. I think joining uni a few years late gave me the hunger for it, where as alot of 18 yr olds don't have the understanding/realise too late.

My exH has a place studying forensic psychology and criminal profiling as a degree. It gets him off incapacity benefit which a few years ago got him off the dole.

He has completed two years and has never even heard of Paul Britton who is the foremost criminal forensic psychologist in England.

The taxpayer is paying for him to study and he is coming up for fifty years old. Three children all over the age of ten including my DD.

He is wasting our tax money and avoiding child support at the same time.

That's not to say that university is always a waste of time and money but I'm definitely considering encouraging my non-academic DC towards a trade.

With so many young people going to University and wasting their time, there must be a gap for young people who want to learn a practical skill and work their way up rather than spend years getting deeper in debt and then joining the unemployment queue.

The working class but rich people I grew up with have always understood this. Mind you, their tax scenarios beggar belief

"Why blame the degrees and the universities for people not putting in the effort to get more than a low-level job? ... Why should people who graduate now feel they are entitled to a local job?"

Who says they won't move? Plenty of graduates live hand-to-mouth in London, working dead-end jobs.

There are on average 70 graduates going for every graduate-level job. More so if it doesn't require a particular degree - there can be hundreds and hundreds of people applying per vacancy. And, I should think, more so in big cities.

Do you really think past generations put in more effort? Have you seen what the application proccess is like these days for graduate jobs? And the experience that is required, often requiring unpaid internships etc.?

There are nowhere near as many graduate-level jobs as there are graduates. If every single graduate tried their little socks off to whatever standard you envision, the majority of them would still not get graduate jobs. Because there aren't enough.

Especially in a recession.

And if 40something% of our young people are graduating, why is it unreasonable to think that there could be suitable jobs for them around the country? Are almost half our young people supposed to tie a handkerchief onto a stick and travel the world to find work? I think it's a sorry state of affairs, if so.

A lot of sixth form students want to do criminal profiling (Cracker has a lot to answer for!) but realistically there are very, very few jobs. OK they could go into the police force, but your ex couldn't do that at his age.

I do think it's irresponsible of universities to accept so many students on these courses.

I work in a sixth form and was told forensics is one of the courses where hardly any one works in a related area - there just aren't the jobs.

Major and Blair should share the blame for this.

Anyone could see that, if you expand higher education to the point where 50% of the population goes there, degrees are devalued.

Uni should revert to being the preserve of the intellectual elite (note, 'intellectual', not social).

Yes I was thinking that astwimtwolengths, surely an actual job if not a career would come about via a full CV and association with the police force?

The course he is on might be something that someone who is not looking for a job might do I think. I hate to mention bored housewives as I'm a SAHM myself but oh he is very righteous saying that he wants to show his children that it isn't too late to make something of himself when in fact he's doing it to get out of paying towards them and won't even have a hope of a job at the end of it the twat.

No chance of DD ever going to university because my DH and I can just about afford to keep her in clothes and food while exH ponces around at Uni and living with Mummy and paying fuck all (£1.30 per week which has stopped since he's been a student)

Anyway.

My DS is autistic and I see a huge future for him in shelf-stacking. He is only three but he is amazing in terms of presentation / orientation and precision.

He'd go bananas if someone tried to take something off the display so it would have to be night work.

Then again he might win an engineering scholarship. DH has engineers on both his father and mothers side who had original and brilliant ideas and money to be made except it didn't work out because of human error. DS would be ruthless

So far, the majority of the posts have equated going to university with having a degree. What about those who go but do not complete the course? (That's me, BTW.)

I'm lucky in as much as my course was funded by the NHS and so have not been left with massive debts, just two years of student loans to repay. There must be many less fortunate who are left with substantial debts and nothing to show for them.

I totally loved University

I was lucky with jobs because I wasn't aiming at graduate level jobs (I'm a nanny), so instead of being one of the 70 graduates applying for one graduate job, I was the only graduate applying for a job where the education level can often (NOT ALWAYS) be quite low. It really gave me a USP and has made finding excellent jobs quite easy.

I think the most important thing for me though wasn't the degree at all. It was the life skills/growing up/confidence it gave me. I'm sure there are probably cheaper ways to do this and some people don't need it, they already have those skills.

For me it was a fantastic experience, has given me a leg-up job wise, something to fall back on if the nannying loses it's appeal, some great friends, some brilliant experiences/memories and life skills that I think I wouldn't have acquired (or at least not for another 10 years) without it. It's without doubt the best 12,000 I ever spent.

Just a little positive there for uni

I have no idea. On the one hand, everybody will have degrees. On the other, they are a waste of time. Fuck knows.