To wish school would stop this God crap

[MrsGravy]

DD is in Year 1 at school, in nursery class and reception they would sing the odd hymn and did a nativity play at Christmas, but other than that there wasn't a lot of religious stuff going on.

By the end of her first week in Year 1 she has come home with two prayers to learn (which they have to say before lunch and before going home) and talking about how God made the world and when you pray you are talking to God.

As you can probably discern from the title of this thread, I am an atheist. I don't mind DD being taught about the various religions that exist, but I actually really resent her being told these things as fact. I resent the fact that her teacher is expecting me to spend a significant amount of time teaching her prayers.

AIBU to question why christianity is playing such a big part in a non-church school??

Yes, pisces, people should be more aware that there is no such thing as a completely secular state school in this country. If more people realised, then more people might complain.

But I think it sounds in this case as if the school (or more likely an individual teacher) is exceeding the legal requirement for a religious element in the school day and instead is actively promoting belief in a particular religion. I think parents who do not choose a faith school are entitled to assume that there will not be active proselytising apart from a hymn and possible simple prayer in the main assembly.

YANBU and I am fuming on your behalf. To me, this is as bad (in fact worse) than young children being taught that - for example - the Conservative party is the only right party and that they should all believe everything the Tories say and when they grow up they should all vote for them.

FWIW I live currently in a very very religious country where God, religion and prayer are a normal part of almost everyone's lives (not mine, you might have guessed ). But the most religion the dd's ever seem to have been taught at school is an occasional song about Jesus on the telephone and possibly a few prayers said at special assemblies.

Teaching about religions at school is fine and in fact very important. But otherwise religion has no place in mainstream schools.

YANBU.

DS does talk about 'christians' as if they are other people, but they still put their hands together and pray at school. Drives DH mad.

Usually the teacher will put 'Christians believe' in front of the sentence but it doesn't always happen.

can i do a mini-hijack and ask if anyone knows if the position (ie legal requirement for daily worship etc) is different in Scotland?

am now concerned over what ds will experience at scottish primary in a years time!

If you are- by law- having collective worship then you must be worshipping something-or it wouldn't be collective worship! Join the secular society and campaign for change.

Scotland has different education acts from England and Wales so I don't know. Google it and find out. If you are in England I think you want 1998 (I may have the wrong year).

The poisition is the same in scotland, toomuch, but I am pretty sure it is not daily that is required.

Most primaries run by sensible heads will have a weekly assembly and sometimes some God songs will be sung. And that's as far as it goes. RME is normally taught in a sensible fashion.

However, the head has a strong influence. As do individual teachers. And no one keeps them in check.

Also, many schools in scotland welcome scripture union into the school.

Yes, pisces, but collective worship can involve some nice God songs. We sing lots of them.

It is so subjective and open to all sorts of manipulations and as such it does not work.

Here it is: legal interpretation of the 1998 Act.

It is a legal requirement to have collective worship in schools. This is set out in the School Standards and Frameworks Act 1998 that states ?each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship?.

The law does allow for different arrangements to be made for the collective worship. Schedule 20 of the 1998 Act states that worship must be collective but can be a single act for a collective group of pupils or acts for a particular group of pupils, for example those in different age groups.

In community schools, the Act states that the worship must be wholly or mainly of a Christian character. The act of worship must take place on school premises but exceptionally, on the agreement of the headteacher, it can take place elsewhere. The headteacher is responsible for collective worship but this must be done in consultation with the governors.

In voluntary or foundation schools that are not of a religious character, the daily worship must be in accordance with the Trust Deeds and arrangements implemented by governors following consultation with headteachers. In foundation and voluntary schools with a religious character, the act of worship must be undertaken in accordance with the Trust Deeds but will focus on the religion of the school as to practice. Independent schools are not bound by the Act but will usually have acts of worship set out in the foundation deeds or agreed by the board of governors.

Often, scottish schools invite the local minister in to talk at an assembly and that covers it.

Guidelines say 'few chaplains would assume that the school gathered for assembly is the same as a congregation gathered for worship. They will appreciate the participants need to be trated with senstiveity, being encouraged to reflect on what is true or worthwhile rather than being given one view as the only possibility'

Every parent has the right to withdraw their DC collective worship.

ah. colective worship, echt. Not daily collective worship.

YABU, This is basically still a Christian country and they should be allowed to teach about God, But she will also get taught about other faiths.

No, pointydog, it says "each school day".

Psst! mumeeee! The "other faiths" think they've got a God, too.

ah. ok

I'm fuming for you and so what if Christians are being offended?? They need to see it from your (our) perspective - how they would view it if their child came in and were told they had to learn passages from Koran and Arabic prayers and that Allah made the world etc (I use this as an example as it's the only other holy book I know.) My kids are all very moral and actually well brought up plus very tolerant of others' beliefs. And just to insense the Christians my 14 year son didn't realise that Catholics were Christians until the Pope's imminent visit!!!!!!!!!!! (that's how big religion is in my house)

But the state and the anglican church and completely bound up aren't they (anglican vicars or maybe archbishops? in the lords for example).

The state accepts, condones, embraces the anglican church, so it's schools must do too - it's part of our culture, what makes us different from french, belgian, whoever???

(Am born and bred catholic with children in anglican junior school and recent convert to c of e so am on very shakey ground here)

Also I think if an individual teacher decides to ask the children to learn a couple of prayers, it's not really a hanging offence. My boys have never been sent home with a prayer to learn, but they still remember grace they learnt to say on Fridays at infant school before lunch 'thankyou lord for giving us lips to eat our chips' .

Ds1 knows there is no god, ds2 might or might not believe, he's keeping his cards close to his chest. I firmly believe you can't MAKE children believe in god, especially if they are hearing the contrary view.

This is not an 'aetheist' state, so you must expect some god bothering at school, but be prepared to put your point of view. I think that will be more influential in their long term views, but in the meantime, don't embarrass them in front of their peers by not helping them learn prayers unless you've explained to teacher first.

bosch I think that a Year 1 pupil can be 'made' to believe in god. They believe whatever their teachers tell them, especially if their parents don't know what's happening so can't contradict them.

It's about time that praying was scrapped from schools. It's a nonsense.

I agree that children can be made to believe things from an early age.
Who actually believes that in the beggining was nothing and then nothing went bang and the universe was created out of nothing. Then billions of life forms just appeared out of a bowl of primevil soup.
The scientist are just as bad telling us how things started
where is the proof?

why do we need to tell kids anything. Most of all why do we have to tell them about gods. I am so grateful to my parents for not filling my head with that sort of stuff.

piscesmoon - thank you, I have just book marked the Secular Society with a view to joining and campaigning. I have been fuming for a while about religion in schools, time to put my money where my mouth is and try and do something about it.....

If you are- by law- having collective worship then you must be worshipping something-or it wouldn't be collective worship!

When I was at primary school we had 'collective worship' in assembley, but wrote our own prayers e.g. thank you for my packed lunch, thank you for the playground etc. and were told you could direct the prayer to whoever you liked..God, Allah, Buddah, Santa, the dinner ladies...whoever you liked! It's quite a good way to do it beacause everyone can choose for themselves and it's nice to think about the things you're thankful for even if you're an atheist as I am.

The children I look after go to a Catholic School, so we were expecting a religious education, but I was disturbed when they came home from nursery (aged 3) with homework asking them to draw a picture of their family and to include God in that picture as he is a member of the family!Brainwashing almost!

bruxeur, Yes I know and schools will actually teach about all faiths.And th OP's DD might in the future bring home things from those faiths to learn.