to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

dandydan - you may be talking about voluntary controlled schools, rather than voluntary aided?

Long-winded discussion of 2) here, but salient quote:

"Meanwhile, in faith schools the RE syllabus taught is determined by the school itself. The RE in these schools is not inspected by the government and can be overtly instructional and fail to expose pupils to other world views than that of the school."

And, er, no, they don't follow 1) otherwise it wouldn't be such a problem. Eg one school DD could have applied to. Or not.

Exactly, altinkum, I don't think there should be Jewish or Muslim schools either. I do think that technically, 'Welsh' is not a faith though...

I think all children should be taught about a range of religions in RE. Precisely because I think they should be tolerant of other beliefs and cultures.

When this came up previously on MN someone came up with this brilliant suggestion:

Have all government-funded schools as secular schools but including multi-faith RE lessons.

But also require the schools to have lunchtime clubs for the particular faiths represented by their catchment, where the children can get whatever special religious teaching and worship their faith requires.

If you want a faith school, would that work for you?

Scientology, legally is a religon - so you have to consider it in any legislation.

I think you are being snobbish. What's wrong with your child attending a school in a council estate? If it is a good school children should do well regardless of their social background.

My child's primary school would probably fit this description but yet still gets SATs results above the national average. This school could probably do with more parents like you who will support their child's learning.

Altinkum - I don't think it send that message at all. I think it says that faith is not something the state should be concerned with therefore everyone is free to practice their own faith.

YA most certainly NBU.

I would sooner move house, and possibly to another planet, than have my child attend a faith school.

It is a national scandal that any public money is spent on them.

There should be a law passed to force all faith schools to opt out of the state sector and become private fee paying schools.

Then, for all I care, they can do what they like and follow their own curriculums and the parents out there who want their children indocrinated with utter nonsense all day each and every school day can bloody well pay for it out of their own money.

Atkinmum of course faith schools - although not all - discriminate against other faiths: it's written into the admission policy.

Perfectly possible however to have faith schools without discriminatory admissions policies. Plenty exist, and all could be brought into line if there were a political will to do so.

I don't want the gov't to say no more faith schools, I want them to abolish the ones we've got. Of whatever faith.

As I said before , all taxpayers fund all state schools in the interest of educating the next generation and generally making the world a better place.

Does segregating children from the age of 5, on the basis of their parents' religion, really make the world a better place? I asked this at 12:13, and no-one has yet jumped forward to say it does.

Altinkum - you are right, it doesn't seem to have the same status here as in the US. Though it seems to be in a bit of a half way position:-

"The UK government does not classify the Church of Scientology as a religious institution.[53] The Church's application for charity status in England and Wales was rejected in 1999,[54] and the Church has not exercised its right of appeal.[53] However, in 2000, the Church of Scientology was exempted from UK value added tax on the basis that it is a not-for-profit body.[55] The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that Scientology is "an officially recognised religion in the Royal Navy".[54] The UK Prison Service does not recognize Scientology as a religion, but prisoners who are registered as Scientologists may practice their religion and are given access to a representative of the Church of Scientology if they wish to receive its ministry.[53]"

But the general point, that if you have faith schools, you can't pick and choose which faiths are allowed them is still valid.

Altinkum - Education in a faith is a responsibility of the faith not the state.

I don't believe that faith schools have made a difference to multi-culturalism - for the vast majority of the time in which multi-culturalism has been developing, there were vanishingly few non-christian faith schools. Hardly multi-cultural.

RE can, and SHOULD be taught in all schools, and without a bias towards any particular faith.

Snorbs

Not sure your suggestion would work. For example, catholic children need specific teaching around the sacraments (communion, confirmation mainly). This could not be taught over lunchtime, there wouldn't be enough time. That's why catholic children who don't go to catholic school need to attend special classes (normally sunday school, but annoyingly ours is on a Friday evening).

Besides, lunchtime should be for eating lunch, socialising and getting exercise.

I am of a minority faith, and have been contemplating this (don't have DCs yet, but one day ...). On the one hand, when the future DCs are young, I think it could be nice for them to go to a Jewish school, so that I know they are taught things in line with my beliefs (and then I know they won't be fed non-kosher food, for e.g.), but on the other hand - I think it can be very "ghetto-ising", and particularly for teenagers they wouldn't be exposed to alternative life views. I don't mind, to an extent, tax money going towards religious schools, if it also allows the government to have a degree of control as to what is taught in schools (as they have to follow the national curriculum, if I understand correctly). Imagine if primary schools started teaching extremist views, unchecked?

Altinkum - "ALL schools even faith have to enroll non faith/other faiths in the school admissions" - yes but they can prioritise their own so that in practice where there is oversubscription, those from different/no faith are excluded.

Altinkum - "ALL schools even faith have to enroll non faith/other faiths in the school admissions."

No, they don't, that's the problem. See my link to a local school's admission procedure here for example. DD, as the daughter of an atheist, makes it in at no.10 on the list. As would a child of Muslim/Hindu/etc parents.

Atkinmum, VA faith schools do not have to take any pupils of other or no faiths. It's not illegal, but I'm glad you seem to agree that it should be.

I send DS to a faith school and DD will be going there next year. It's the best school in my area and there was no hassle admitting them in at all, even though it's not the closest one to us. The classes are smaller and it's a great community spirit.

If it had been the case that we couldn't get because we weren't the faith (which we're not) then fair enough.

Take the CofE School at the end of my road.

It's admission criteria are:-

Foundation Places
15 places will be offered to:

1. Church of England looked after children in Public

Care

1. Children at least one of whose parents are regular

worshippers at [church].

1. Children at least one of whose parents are regular

worshippers at any other Anglican church.

1. Children at least one of whose parents are regular

worshippers at other Christian Denominations as recognised by Churches Together in England.

Open Places
15 places will be offered according to the following
criteria:

1. Looked after children in Public Care.
2. Children who will have a sibling (defined as above)

in the school at the time of admission to the school?s register.

1. Children with documented acute social or medical

needs supported by professional references. The supporting evidence should set out the particular reason why St. Mary?s school is the most suitable school and the difficulties that would be caused if the child had to attend another school.

1. Children already at St. Mary?s Nursery school.
2. Children living closest to the school.

Sibling preference only applies to foundation places.

The result?

All places when on foundations places for priorties 2,3 and 4.

So you can't attend that school without going to a christian school.