to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

Oh my, one of my kids was baptised at age 4 - but nothing to do with school entry (he has never been to a CofE school or ever applied for one). Pure faith, I'm afraid. He is getting confirmed (all of his own accord) in a few weeks. .

MmeBlueberry - something has just occurred to me. Do you know anything at all about admissions policies at state schools? Specifically faith schools?

Jst joined this. YANBU. Seems bizarre that taxes are funding the perpetuation of religion, which i believe is a private matter for the family.
Also grossly unfair that some children have a wider choice of schools than others simply because of their parents' faith ( whther genuine or not). If you are not a faith school family, you have one choice - community schools - leaving aside of course selective and private - if you are a faith family, often you will have choice of local community or your faith school - so can look at results and ethos and have the luxury of choice. Inequitable, no?

As long as faith schools provide a handy way for politicians to avoid the local comp while still claiming their support for state funded education (looking at you Mr Blair and Mr Cameron) we will have faith schools.

The more a faith school is oversubscribed (or in other words, the closer it is to a sink estate primary), the more parents have to jump through hoops to attend.

You could set up a state funded Morris Dancing primary in a similar situation and parents would be playing their children Morris Dancing music in the womb and spending their weekends waving sticks around.

Of course the faith school could decide to actively seek out deprived children who need more help and ignore all the middle class parents but this doesn't seem to be too common.

No wonder tere is no real investigation into this inequitable system - so many of the great and good are able to save cash and trumpet left wing credentials by going ot local faith state school.I thought the recent Ricahrd Dawkins prog on faith schools was interesting but a bit philosophical/theroetcial, I want a hard hittign campaign to abolish state funding for religious schools- let's see how many parents are prepared to pay for what they say they value so highly.

Actually I'm going to stick up for the faithy types here, (even thought I don't agree with the existence of their schools.) Some of the most committed and evangelical, enthusiastic and genuinely involved worshippers I know are born again, or converted, and not always for cynical reasons. I think many people baptise their babies in the same way they have engagement and housewarming parties - it means nothing, it's just a celebration of the child's existence and an excuse for a party. So if someone has bothered to baptise their child later in life, it may actually be for genuine reasons and they may be more committed to their God of choice than someone who went through the motions early on.

Still don't agree with faith schools though.

We were offered a place in a CofE out of catchment faith school before we moved. We are committed born again Christians, go to church regularly but never had our children baptised. We were all set to use the school but moved! So even the baptism card doesn't always matter!!

You see I really really respect that stance. Espcially if you haven't yet had the children baptised because you wanted them to experience 'God' first and make their minds up about what they think about it all once they are able to question and evaluate it all for themselves. Then if they want to carry the membership card, they do it with full understanding and no coersion.

I agree merrymouse. The town where I used to live actually had a CofE secondary that, as part of its mission in the community, actively sought out local children from its largely more deprived catchment area as well as local churches.

As a result, most churchgoing parents sent their children to a better performing secular secondary or went private. Suddenly a 'christian community ethos' wasn't quite so important as plain old GCSE results.

My Ds was baptised on his 4th birthday. He hadn't been baptised earlier because I was going through a lot of crap with his father and I was going through some massive guilt trips about my Ds's birth cert.

I was not a regular mass attendee as I worked every weekend and the parish priest told me I had to attend more in order to have him baptised; anyway, my works Chaplain baptised him and Ds then went to the local Catholic primary.

I have heard people sitting at the back of the Church saying; I'm only here to get Dd/Ds into the school...

I don't blame them frankly solo. If it's the best school in the area and free, why wouldn't people fake it? If you want the truly faithful, pay for it yourselves. Very, very simple and then you wouldn't have cause to complain.

In some schools, childrren who are baptised late won't pass the admission criteria, as that would indicate that the parents are not true believers

Oh I'm not complaining LadyBiscuit; as long as it doesn't jeopardise my Dc's place .

just to correct a couple of the misconceptions on here

Roughly half of all CofE schools are voluntary controlled and therefore use exactly the same entry criteria as the LEA use for community schools (usually LAC/SN/Siblings/distance etc), no baptism or church attendance required, no preference for churchgoers.

Although infant baptism is usually a requirement for RC schools it is unusual for it to be a requirement for CofE schools (and I've just looked through my LEA's CofE VA schools and NONE of them require baptism).

How is entry to school based on parent's wealth (ie ability to buy a house close enough to a good school to guarantee entry) a fair system?

We chose a VA faith school for our DC (the one linked to our church as it happens, but it's roughly 50/50 churchgoers/not - and they state very clearly they offer "a Christian education" NOT "an education for Christians") but I would be happy for the entry system to change if someone could come up with something everyone regards as fairer, which would definitely NOT be one based on parent's wealth!

Solo, I think your experience shows why Catholic schools should not be getting tangled up in the state education system. It is a thorny issue in parishes, and leads to the kind of regrettable mutterings you have heard.

Betsy that's so true - state (non faith) schools admissions criteria are based on whether you can afford to live close to the best schools or not.

The thing is, our Church has a massive congregation every week. I went this evening expecting Saturday night to be quiet! oh no! it was full(I usually go on Sunday).

On Sunday mornings though, I always have to stand at the back because you can't fit a till receipt between the bums on seats.

Dusty/Betsy - So the way to make an unfair system better is to make it even more unfair?
I don't believe there is a suggestion that abolishing faith school would create a utopia. The question is if they are a net benefit or cost. No one has presented any evidence that they are of any benefit over and above community schools, apart from a comparatively small amount of money and access to come facilities. Is this worth the distortions to admissions?

"I don't blame them frankly solo. If it's the best school in the area and free, why wouldn't people fake it?"

Because they don't want their children living a lie? Because they have self respect? Because they realize that principles are important? Because they abhor dishonesty?

Just a few suggestions.

Even at a C of E primary school it is possible to opt out of the acts of worship (not sure about the RE part of the curriculum as that covers all religions). At the school I worked at 2 children sat outside the hall for the acts of worship (assembly).

So long as one can exclude one's children from aspects of the curriculum with which does not agree (acts of worship, sex education etc), I don't have a problem with faith schools within the state system.

But not all faith schools have that criteria and requirements for their schools. I've heard of many not even requiring baptism certificates to be shown.
A far cry from my day (Lord how old that sounds) of having to provide references from the parish priest, and answering another register on Mondays as to whether or not we'd attended mass on Sunday.
I agree with pps who have mentioned traditional RC intake being from the poorest sectors of society. Should only the more well-off be able to afford religious schools?
I don't think religion and preparing for the sacraments is something parents and out-of-school instruction alone could cover.

I've attended both private and state religious schools by the way.

Oversubscribed faith schools do not get children from the very worst off sections of society. Parents with chaotic lifestyles due to mental health or substance abuse issues generally don't make it to church on Sundays even if they are part of a faith community, let alone in order to get their kids into a better school.

Barry - that doesn't address the admissions issue or the possibility that as some on here have stated, faith pervades the curriculum.

"Dusty/Betsy - So the way to make an unfair system better is to make it even more unfair?"

All it would do is change the people it's unfair to, i.e. the middle class mummies and daddies will be able to buy a house close enough to get in, whereas the church-going minimum-wage family from the council estate would be excluded. Don't forget that for everyone who gains a place, someone else loses it...

"Parents with chaotic lifestyles due to mental health or substance abuse issues generally don't make it to church on Sundays" - they generally don't buy expensive houses near to outstanding community schools either...

Surely the problem is there are "good" schools (which parents "buy" there way into by buying a house in the right area, or by going to church - which yes a proportion do just-and-only to get into school) and "bad" schools (which those parents who can afford it and/or are motivated enough avoid)

What we need is to address is the "bad" schools not change the rules as to who is disadvantaged and has to go to them...

Aside from the better pastoral care in faith schools (IMO of course) the cost issue isn't little. It's not just the (small amount in the grand scheme of things I know) capital funding the Church provides, but what they give for FREE - for example use of the land and buildings.

So there are around 2500 (approx 10% of primary schools) Voluntary Controlled CofE primaries (no faith based admission) so lets start with those. The Church will charge only a very conservative £100k per school per year (which is a lot less than PFI costs!) to lease the schools to the government, so that's a £250m pa increase...in a time when we are looking at 40% cuts...I don't think so...