to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

Religion is older than prostitution and of course RE should be taught - and taught well - in schools but that should be as far as it goes with religion and state education.

What a shame the last Government missed the opportunity to sort this sorry situation out and get rid of faith schools.

They are a nonsense and YANBU

I agree 100% with the first comment. My nearest local primary school is a faith school yet I didn't have a chance of getting my daughter in it as I didn't comply with the main criteria, proof of a two year attendance to a religious institutions with a letter from the religious leader. Ironically I am a "believer" and do attend a multi-faith congregation but I am quite critical of organised religion. I can't see why if I pay my taxes I am excluded in the entry criteria to my nearest primary school.

I think the most interesting question is why the faith schools are so good in the first place? If the other school near to you had a fantastic Ofsted report we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I think they are funded the same way as other state schools and so why are faith schools able to provide a better standard of education? Maybe because there is more of a community feel and more input from parents?

Also I'm not sure that the other school having lots of kids receiving free-school meals and having English as a second language is reason to not send your child there! You don't want your children mixing with kids who aren't middle-class and English?

nannylocal, faith schools (or at least those with their own admission criteria) are effectively selective; they give priority to children of parents who are organised, focussed and sufficiently integrated in the community to go to church every Sunday and get the necessary references from the priest. This automatically excludes a lot of children from the more difficult and chaotic backgrounds, who all end up at the community school up the road.

Thus it is relatively easy for faith schools to achieve good results because they have already filtered out many of the children who are likely to struggle, and relatively difficult for their community school neighbour who consequently has to cater for an unusually high proportion of such kids.

(apologies for bad grammar)

OP, YANBU.

The only disagreement I have is that I think it would be better for all schools to be secular, teaching about all religions in an unbiased manner but not in the business of indoctrinating the next generation. Parents can surely do that at home.

It would be absolute lunacy to close the faith schools down. But supporting them with everyone's taxes seems crazy to me.

Oh lordy not this old chesnut again. If state schools in the Uk were better, ppl would feel satisfied and stop bitching about faith schools, which perform better and make non believers very

If there is any old chestnut here, it's the old chestnut that anyone who takes issue with an unjust or dysfunctional aspect of society is, as you put it,

It's really not much of an argument.

Dusty - your jealousy argument doesn't wash with me.

I have a faith school at the end of my road. I strongly believe that DS should have the option to go there. NOT because it is a good school (it isn't, has an appalling OFSTED report) but because:

1. Religious discrimination is illegal in all other aspects of life so why should school admissions be different?

2. I should be able to send DS to the school in my road and not have to send him to be educated outside of my immediate community (the nearest non- faith school which is miles away).

3. I live in a multi-faith area with much segregation/crime/ill feeling between different cultures and faiths. We should be educating all faiths together so that kids can learn to understand and be friends who have different beliefs to themselves.

4. I pay taxes to support education - and I am being prevented from using certain education establishments. Yet I can use all hospitals? Why is that different?

Haven't read all the thread, but has do we know if anyone has ever brought a discrimination case against a faith school due to their admissions policy?

Why do motivated parents choose these faith schools?

It's fine to say that they are good because of the parent body, but the parents are making informed choices. If they perceived non-faith schools to be better, they would direct their pushiness in those directions.

I wonder if the tax paid by these families is higher than the tax paid by non-faith school families. This would make it a total nonsense to complain about where your individual taxes are going.

Yes, the Jewish school was found to discriminate as the criteria was not that you were Jewish but that you were Jewish and your mother had been born Jewish (ie Jewish blood) which is one definition in Judaism but not accepted by all bits of it. A bit like the Pope saying you're only Catholic if your mother was Italian and you can trace back the line unbroken 2000 years of always having an Italian mother.

Buit the principle that state schools can have religious admissions policies is allowed in law.

More to the point thought to be quite frank even religious state primaries are nothing like as good as the primary schools of places like Westminster underschool, Haberdashers, Dulwich prep and all the other good private primaries so you're only realyl picking middle ground if you go for religious schools and even then they are patchy. The better thing is work as a woman in a career where you can fund school fees rather than pretend to accept God for a few years because you buy an even better education.

Let's not be hypocrit guys! "Faith" schools are better because they "favour" pupils who have been brought up with the same beliefs and ethos. Behaviour is the building stone of any good school. It doesn't happen by magic (or even by the grace of God!), it's the work of parents who will not tolerate for their children to behave inappropriately. I don't see why distance is such an issue (to respond to the original poster, your local "Faith" school is obviously the only one around for people to come from afar). Your taxes pay for all schools equally, my taxes pay for all schools equally. Faith schools or not get the same amount of money. So, sorry to the frustrated mummies out there, I know we all want the best for our children, but religious schools are usually better because parents and children work very hard at making it so. It's all about behaviour, attitude, beliefs and ethos. I can assure you that the Catholic school my child attends has a large number of EFL children and that does not affect the learning of the class. Last point, I am so fed up with people judging me and my beliefs. I am dedicated to my religion and my church. It was very important for my husband and I to send our child to a school where he would be taught surrounded by the same ethos that ours. We all work hard as parents and teachers (which I am too) to maintain high standards academically and spiritually. It has become such a modern British thing this all criticism and knocking down. Instead of emulating what works, people prefer to bring it down to the same level than that what doesn't. It's not about money, it's about people with the same understanding of good working together. Let's face it if all schools had the power to "exclude" some people like the chain smoking foul mouthed parents who can't spare 20 mins a day to help with their kids' homework (not politically correct? Oh well, i'm 37 weeks and highly hormonal, things come out of my mouth without control!).

Can the supporter of faith schools explain, clearly and in words of one syllable how the following scenario is fair.

There are two schools at opposite ends of a small town. St Mary's, a church school and Trumpton Primary School. Janet lives next door to TPS and her family are practicing Christians. John lives next door to St Marys, and his family aren't.

Janet has priority over John at St Marys because she is a church goer AND at TPS because she lives next door.

Thoughts?

seeker - great example.
xenia - the jewish free school got into trouble because in english law Jews are defined separately, in different legislation as a 'religion' but also as a 'race'
(jews lobbied hard to be defined as a race when the original race-relations acts were passed, in order to get the protection they offered)

roll forward to the 21st century:

• schools ARE allowed to have admission poliies that discriminate amongst children

on the basis of [their parents'] religion (in fact this is encouraged: govt policy is to have more faith schools)

• however schools are NOT allowed to have admission policies that discriminate on the basis of race.

hence the problem. the courts found that the was the JFS defined jewishness amounted to racial discrimination.

State schools should be schools for the whole community.

Faith schools are divisive, as this dicussion amply demonstrates.

Hindus believe that God and Goddess are within us, around us and amongst us.i.e God is omnipotent and omni present and heavenly father whom Jesus Christ was darkie Hindu Lord God Krishna as per Swaraswati Films.Howver,in world of piracy,hijacking and copying just like todays Somali piracy,American alleged piracy of Iraqi oil or Chinese and Indian piracy of video and cds and all,Hindu faith inspired Jesus Christ and his faith was hijacked by Roman Soldiers and became Christianity and which Karl marx,German Jewish man,buried in London,who read 10,000 book said that religion is opium of the poor.
So how can one draw a balance between folks of faith and none?
If the taxes were cut to ten percent as a flat rate,which was the rule in UK 1,000 years ago,with tithe system,folks would have more money in thier pockest and then create and pay for thier own faith schools and promote thier own values,ethos and all.eg Arya Samaj Hindu Schools which are purely vegetarians and promote humanity,justice and equality for all sexes and races,including womens ,children and animal rights and non violence and spirituality.why cant uk and eu follow that role model and cut taxes massively and empower individuals and communities for a farier and better britain?

Xenia 7% of provision in this country is private let's assume that's proportionate throughout the age range of pupils. Let's assume that an average private education is the same as the best state primary. Then assume that school fees are going to.follow the laws of supply and demand. are you seriously suggesting that the best way to secure a good education for your children is to ensure that you are in the top 3.5% of earners in this country. Because, despite their best efforts, 96.5% of mothers are fucked. It seems a somewhat high risk strategy.

Maaster - 1000 years ago only a small proportion of the population paid ANY tax. The rest were bonded labour. And the king would raise taxed whenever he felt like it, or needed to pay for stuff.

Difficult one for me.
Fiath schools do so well, I'm kind of inclined to say leave well alone.

And yet...my head tells me that schools that wish to select on religion or any other grounds, ought to be independent of the state.
It isn't the tax payers job to fund them.

I'm dipping in and out of this so maybe already mentioned think someone said cannot be discriminated against in getting a job in a faith school - access to RC school jobs in Glasgow.....

Council guidelines:
"Once the preferred candidate is identified they will be offered the post subject to various checks, such as evidence of qualifications, Enhanced Disclosure and Roman Catholic Church approval. If they cannot demonstrate Church approval then they will not be appointed."