to think that free preschool places should actually BE free?

[MrsCadwallader]

I'm having a genuine dilemma with this one so would be reallly interested in your honest opinions, and to see how this compares with experiences across the country.

DS3 attends a local independently run (ie not attached to any school) preschool. He turned three last October and so has been there a while already as he was entitled to the nursery / preschool grant from January (DS1 and 2 were also there for almost 2 years each too - I'll come back to this!).

Last year he was entitled to 12.5 hours free, so he attended 4 x 3hr sessions a week. We didn't do the 5th morning, because we would have had to pay for the session (£18 per session). It would have been convenient for me for him to have done so, as I study part-time and the extra couple of hours would have been useful - but we couldn't afford it.

This year, as you probably know, the preschool provision has increased to 15 hours per week, which would cover 5x 3 hours. On this basis we signed him up for 5 mornings a week for this academic year (thinking 'hurray, that gives me an extra morning free' :) )

However..... because the nursery grant doesn't pay as much as parents paying privately do, the preschool say that they can no longer cover the cost of resources if all children's places are fully covered by the government grant. On this basis they are asking for a 'voluntary donation' of £1.50 per session. Also, because the grant only coveres 13 weeks per term, and the autumn term is longer, we have the 'option' of paying for the extra sessions to cover until the end of term (preschool runs with the local school term). In short, for our 'free' preschool place, we have had a ("voluntary") invoice for almost £190 for this term.

Am I being unreasonable to not want to pay? The (LEA) paperwork that came with the invoice says that we cannot be made to pay and any contributions that the provider asks for are purely voluntary. We can pay (ie we could find the extra money, but we don't have that sort of amount lying around going spare )

DH was really pissed off and argues that preschool ought to be able to manage their own budget and it's not our fault that they are spending more than they can afford. Basicallly, he feels that we are being asked to tighten our belts so that they don't have to. I see his point, and agree - but.....

.... if we don't pay, will we be effectively sponging off the other parents who HAVE paid the donation?

I genuinely don't know what to do. As I said, the money isn't exactly going spare, but we COULD find it and pay it. I'm bloody annoyed at having been asked for it though! However (again) I really don't want to generate any hard feeling or awkwardness - as I mentioned above my elder two went to the same preschool - I've been taking one or other of my children for 5 years continuously now - and the staff there are almost a part of the family.

Would it be unreasonable to refuse to pay?

To be honest some pre-schools are going to really struggle to fund themselves with just the grant. They have to pay out of this for: room hire, staffing costs, heat, light etc., and then resources for the kids.

It depends where you are, but if they are paying staff above the minimium wage, which is necessary in some areas (and desirable if the staff are qualified), or the rent is anywhere near a commercial rate, then they will struggle to fund this just on the nursery grant.

Those attached to schools are subsidised on the rent, utilities and possibly even resources bills. They may even be subsidised overall.

However if you want the choice of a pre-school which may do things slightly differently from an LEA one, or even just enough child care places then there is a need for private ones. The issue is that the government offered these child care places without being prepared to fully fund them.

I would suggest you and your husband ask to see a copy of the accounts, and see what a shoe string the pre-school is run on.

Thanks - one of the issues where we are is that there IS no choice of providers - it's private or none at all. Ours is attached to a local church and is supported and subsidised by them. The only other local option is completely independent of any body - and charges even more!

The points you make are the reasons why I feel genuinely torn - I don't begrudge them the resources at all, we love the preschool and all our kids have been very happy there. You're right - the problem is with the Govt funding and not with the preschool itself. BUT I still feel bloody annoyed to have been landed with a bill for this amount for my 'free' place at preschool.

I think the 'sting' is worse because we live in an 'affluent' area where generally speaking parents CAN afford to contribute, so it isn't unreasonable for the preschool to ask (and I know that they will have thought long and hard before asking for a contribution). I just hate continually being treated as if we are a 'soft touch' - the assumption is that because we live where we do, then of course we have plenty of money and want to indulge our child's every whim . Well, we haven't, and we don't!

My gripe is - don't call it a free preschool place if it isn't going to be! I just wondered how it compared with other people's providers?

You could see this mess coming since the propsed policy revision was announced some 3 years ago.

The money allocated per hour simply does not match a typical nursery's pre-profit costs (especially in the SE). I doubt many nurseries will be able to take the hit in the long term; do not be surprised to see closures, or total withdrawal from the scheme.

It's massively unfair to working parents who may need the longer day (typically only provided by private nurseries).

I was campaigning about this when the then Govt put the proposals out for consultation.

Ray of hope: as current Govt did not come up with this, they'll be less wedded to it, and so perhaps more amenable to persuasion to change. Hopefully before nursery closures, or further wrecking of family finances as nurseries are forces out of the scheme.

YANBU to think that the nursery education grant should cover the 15 hours
but as previous posters have said, the amount the govenrments gives simply does not cover the costs of the preschool.

But, look at it this way,at £1.50 a session it is 50p an hour for childcare - extremely cheap!

My dd is just starting school and I am so relieved not to have the £150 a week bill for her nursery!

Will the preschool let you pay in installments? That would surely make it easier? It really isn't that much money to find is it.

My daughter's pre-school has put the same arrangements in place: ie. charging a voluntary donation per session and an extra week's fees in the autumn term because it's 14 weeks and the grant only covers them for 13 weeks.

TBH, I'm happy to pay it. I feel sorry for the staff who work extremely hard to provide high quality care, decent resources for the children etc. They're not making a lot of money (if at all) from it. The staff are paid above the minimum wage but are better qualified than staff need to be for the setting with high than the minimum staff rations.

I want my daughter to benefit from the experience she has there, I'm grateful that once she's 3 the State will pick up the majority of the bill and I'm happy to contribute to the rest.

I can see it is difficult if you genuinely can't put your hands on the extra money. Our pre-school has made clear the additional contribution is voluntary and no child would be penalised if their parents can't or won't pay it. But ultimately, if not enough parents do, then they'll have to close.

I'm confused - ok, the grant only covers 13 weeks per term, but the spring term is generally shorter than this - 39 weeks is the total number of weeks worked in a school per year, so over the year it'll even out - or are they going to reimburse you in the shorter terms?!

What about paying half of it? That way you're making it obvious that you want to help out, and aren't totally sponging, but it also means you don't need to find it all in a big hit. (And maybe if they havea fete or similar, make sure you send in a little more/nicer stuff than you might have done!)

Don't have much advice, but this is a situation that is going on all over the country, and you are roght that it is totally the governments fault, not the preschools. Of course you should be entitled not to pay the extra, but the sad truth is that if all the parents chose not to pay then the pre school may have to think about closing. Our nursery was, and could still have to do that.

Think about where the money is actually going, it pays for the staff who look after your precious children, it pays for the toys and resources that they learn from, as well as the normal overheads that any business will have. Asking to look at the accounts may make you and your husband feel better about where the money is going as mummytime suggested. And bear in mind that the owner of the nursery has probably had a nightmare with all this new government thing, it is really not easy for them and I'm sure they wouldn't ask for the money if they didn't have to.

Thanks all.

You are right curlymama, the preschool will have thought very long and hard about asking for extra from parents and I would hate for them to struggle to make ends meet. TBH I think the bigger problem is the fact that I'm sick of living in such a way that every unexpected bill makes me want to hide under the bed and cry!

Part of the problem for us is that I am NOT working, I am studying - so I NEED the time in which to work, but do not have a salary at present to pay for the childcare, which is why we have always made do with the free provision. But, chatting with a friend on the way in this morning, she asked if I could just consider it part of my study expenses. She's absolutely right, I could (and should!) especially as the drawdown for my study loan for this year's fees has just come through and is more than I need to pay my fees by a total of..... (drumroll) £190!!

How's that for things working in your favour? :)

So, I'll pay the money for the term and stop worrying for now, and brace myself again in time for January!

Galena as for the extra sessions, apparently the grant for the autumn term is 7 sessions short, but the grant for the spring and summer terms is one day each too long, so they will offset the two extra days against this term so that we will pay for an extra 5 sessions if we choose to. That side of the charges won't be an issue over the next two terms, so it will just be the 'top up' donation.

Thanks again for your input - it's good to get a little perspective!

We have a similar situation here except that the those attached to schools but you have to do ALL 5 sessions do not charge, those not attached to a school where you can choose to do less than 5 sessions charge a top up.

I don't want my daughter in childcare every morning as I will never get a chance to do anything with her while her older sister is at school, but I do think she benefits from the interaction, however we are now on a budget of nothing with my job having gone and we cannot afford the £3 a day top up they want us to pay at her current preschool.

I feel caught between a rock and hard place as if we choose the 5 day a week preschool we would pay nothing!

WB could you take the 5-day-a-week place and then just not send her in on some days?

It's a tough situation though - I know a few families at the other preschool local to us who have pulled out because they couldn't afford the extra top-ups they kept asking for, never mind being constantly messed around with hours of care etc (long and complicated story, only interesting if you are a local mum! )

Hope you can sort something out.

Wierdbird - that's a bit odd! I'd do as suggested above and keep your dd home when you want to. What are the school going to do about it if that's what you choose to do, they are hardly going to force you to send her in. Maybe they would realise that the policy they have chosen to implement is a bit ridiculous. And maybe there will be weeks where the extra day comes in useful.

Personally, I would either just send my child for the 4 sessions per week that you do already and not pay the 'voluntary' contribution or I would use the 5 days and pay £50 per term, which I think is a reasonable contribution.

My DD is due to start preschool next september. It is attatched to the school she will be attending and is full time (9 - 3.20).
So far as I know they are not charging and the time is obviously more than the 15 hrs per week basic entitlement.

The main reason for the extra 5 sessions a yr is because when the preschools run to school terms, they generally don't have teacher trainng days. There are 5 teacher training days a yr. These are the 5 extra sessions you pay for (effectively). Our preschool has got round it (this yr and last) by closing early and opening a few days later than the schools... it was that or charge for the week which is outside Government funding. I.e parents could have lots of sessions if they like, but had to pay for anything over the funded hours. By not opening for those days it saves parents money.

I find it extremely odd, I must be very very lucky! Our village pre-school is not attached to the school and runs from the village hall, half day Mondays and all day Tue, wed, Thurs. The children can start when they are 2.9 years old so you have one term to pay fees and then funding kicks in.
When my dd was there it was the 2.5 hours (she is in Y1 now) and if you did a full day you paid for the lunch hour (about £4.50 I think) and the sessions where 2.5 hours long, the lunch care was all we had to pay if funded.
Now the 15 hours has rolled out it has changed a bit, my ds starts Jan, I will pay one term of fees then he will be doing 2.5 days and I wont pay a penny, on the full days they have extended the sessions to 3 hours, on a Monday they can't extend the hours so it is just 2.5 hours, if you do a half day on a day the pre-school is open a full day you can use up the extra bit of funding you would have by having the child stay to eat lunch. I am losing out on a half hour of funding by sending my ds in for his half day on a Monday but it is not a big deal.
Maybe the reason our free places are just that is because it is a registered charity, it is a community pre-school not a business as such, run by parent community but employing very well qualified staff and supervisor.
the session fees you state of £18 a pop made me choke a little on my lunch, I can't remember how much it is at ours but around the £7 mark, I know my bill for the term ds is not funded will be about £200 ish, that's for 3 sessions for one term (Jan to Easter).
If our pre-school can manage it I struggle to see how others are having problems, it is an affluent area but not all of us are loaded and they are quite a few like me, every single penny counts so it is not like parents poor hundreds of pounds in to the fund raisers and all staff and building costs come from fees, fundraising money is only used for resources so maybe that's it but our target for fundraising per year is about £7000, depending on how many children are in the pre-school an average bill per child per term of £190 is going to raise allot more then that!
I guess it comes down to us being lucky, never knew how lucky I guess!

Our free places are not free, as the nursery just takes a lump sum off and charges the difference. But the council round here doesn't want you to know that as they refuse to let childcare providers put any information on invoices. And the funding should be for 38 weeks, not 39 - 14 weeks for the Autumn, and 12 weeks each for Spring and Summer.

SurreyDad it is the nursery that is in the wrong. The code of practice clearly says that they are not allowed to take the sum of the nursery grant off. They must take 15 hours per week of fees of, or 11 hours if they offer care all year round.

So your invoice should read "number of hours in attendance - 11 hours = chargeable hours x rate per hour"

We are asked to make a voluntary donation to my daughter's preschool, and it's a lot steeper than that I have to say. £100, per term, per child. It's a flat rate, regardless of whether we take advantage of 1 session or 5.

ALthough it's a lot for us to find, I'm happy(ish) to pay it, as I know that the extra money pays for a better level/quality of staff, and the preschool is very very lovely. If I wasn't in a position to afford it at all, we would look at a different setting, and accept a not so good provision I suppose. Although the contribution is voluntary, I know that if parents didn't pay it, the preschool could not possibly operate as it currently does.

There are a few different settings around here though (driving distance, however, as we're in a rural area), so I think your situation is different. Do you know any other parents in your position?

Lougle - although you are correct that they shouldn't (not must not - there is a legal difference), I would hardley say the Code of Practice is clear about anything!

I am aware of the legal difference, SurreyDad I think that the CoP is very clear on that matter though. It categorically states that:

"Local authorities should:
....
? Support providers to set out clearly in billing, which of the hours attended have been provided free, and that this is not represented as a monetary discount or grant."

My nursery does the same as Surreydad's. I was fairly sure they weren't supposed to do that, but as it is DD's private nursery that she has been at for 18 months, and places in other nursery's are hard to come by, I don't have much choice but to comply.

This is a really complex issue and has nothing to do with the nurseries not being able to manage their budgets. Basically what the govrenment is doing is telling the nurseries they must supply 15 hours of childcare at the rate the local authority is willing to pay for each hour. And, unfortunately this rate is often below what the facility would usually charge per hour. So, what happens is those 'better' nurseries are ebing expected to make up the shortfall between what the government pays and what they would usually charge.

Although the principle of free entitlement is fantastic, what it means for those nurseries providing a higher quality service is that they will inevitably have to compromise this level of service as a result of the reduced income, some might even go under.

There is lots more information about this issue and a petition on this website:
www.freechildcare.org.uk/

i wouldnt pay it. i have friends who work in nurseris and they absolutly rake the money in. if you really want to help, ask to see the accounts, or suggest the parents could do some fundraising so that parents dont have to pay.

NordicPrincess I think you're missing the point - the government are saying to nurseries they have to give 15 hours per child for a certain rate. At some nurseries this rate will cover the sessions the child has. At the better nurseries that provide value add like meals, nappies, formula, higher staff ratios etc the amount the government pays doesn't cover the sessions. So what should these nurseries do? Take it on the chin because the government says they should? Cut the level of service they provide? Which is ultimately the level of service being provided to parents and their children?

I don't know where your friends work but believe me, most nurseries are struggling, like every other business in this economic climate. Yet I can't think of any other businesses where the customer can just walk in, select a product or service and then tell the business he will take it at a price he's prepared to pay, not the price the business is selling it at, and there's nothing the business can do about it.

Take a look at Nursery World website which has some case studies on it and talks to a nursery owner whose nursery will close due to loss of income.

i agree with you sunsine that it isn't fair on the nurseries but i think they need to be a bit creative to get round this.

one nursery i know of is charging a fee for certain activities provided e.g. they charge an arts and crafts fee to cover materials used. other nurseries are charging separately for the meals.

reading this i think our nursery is doing it wrong too. they charge us the full fee for the year which we pay monthly on direct debit and then they physically pay back to us the grant when they receive it, they have not adjusted the fee we pay at all to take account of the fact that we should be getting 11 hours a week (it is open all year) free...