Upset by tonights Dispatches - cousin marriages

[MumNWLondon]

AIBU to think that in the light of the known health risks of cousin marriages there are has not been a nation wide campaign alerting people of the risks.

Just watched Dispatches and cousin marriages.

Salient points:

• massive increased risks of children with genetic conditions with cousin marriages - 700 affected babies born each year
• something like British pakistanis have 1/3 of children with genetic diseases yet they are only 1.5% of population
• can't do genetic testing as only 40% of things can even be tested for. with cousin marriage new gene mutations result in genetic conditions
• each child can cost NHS £250k per year
• very little awareness for fear of being "racist" (although same issues would affect non muslims too)

Of course lots of people on program saying well my parents are cousins and i am healthy. of course they are, it just increases risks a lot, doesn't mean they'll def have disabled children.

I dont think it matters whether its legal or not. Drinking bleach is illegal. Its still going to kill you.

We cant use legality as a measure of whether its right or wrong. IMO it boils down to whether your own needs outweigh that of your child.

If you feel the benefits outweigh the risks, then the potential of having a disabled child is something you have to live with.

StrictlyTory: That mother had 6 children, 3 of whom are healthy. The older affected boy did not show symptoms and was not diagnosed until he was older, during which time the second 2 affected children - the girls were born. And they were TWINS, so she didn't have 3 successive affected children. Your condemnation of her choices is too harsh. Pay more attention.

OTT - yes, may of them were uneducated. Does that make them less valuable as people? A younger generation need to be educated better. Ans while they showed one religious leader hedging and equivocating like mad they later showed another who was pro-actively preaching against cousin marriages. Watch the whole thing before writing people off?

what happens when eventually the level of inbredding increases to an even higher level?
A lot of genetic diabilites come along with decreased fertility, or not fertility at all, and TBH, with severe learning disabilites, its not likely they will end up with a partner etc.
So what will happen then?
all their family assets etc will be worth nothing because they will either not have the right people to look after them, or they will have to be sold off to help with care costs?

FGS, that mother was asking in desparation in the hope against hope that something new that could reverse the condition might have been found in some miracle!

People come across very diffently in small snapshots of their lives. OTT I am going to make no overall judgement on your own level of education for your use of 'could of' instead of 'could have'. It's a snapshot and you are typing under pressure! Good luck in the outcome of your family's tests.

This is a complex issue - clearly education around the issue is important. Education and awareness could actually lead to fewer young pelpe being pressured into arranged marriages too. The young people interviewed seemed to think that cousin marriages were not always the first choice of the bride and groom, and if parents see that a cousin marriage could have an unhappy outcome, they ay be more willing to let go of the controlling role.

I think grammar (could have/could of) is a learned discipline, where as the feeling that incest is wrong is an inherent human instinct which seperates us from animals.

or even separates....

I do think this is inherent that people to elsewhere to find a partner and that the first cousin thing developes only out of warped cultures where girls (and boys too) are forced to marry people their parents choose for reasons to do with wealth and family security and caste or grouping and that if presented with total stranger 40 years your senior who looks like the back end of a bus and might well beat you up or the cousin you've lived with all your life who is about your age whom the family know and can control then you take the lesser of the two evils but both are inherent evils of course.

Fruit -do you think that cousin marriage is incest?

Xenia - bloody hell.

Cousin marriage is quite common in europe as well. And local inbreeding is pretty much the same thing and there's lots of that all over the world.

I personally don't think that the marriage between cousins is any big deal - the possible genetic outcomes for the offspring is what worries me. But I also feel the same for people who marry into their own small geographical community generation after generation.

Education is what's needed so that also it's legal to marry your cousin you are aware of the possible risks to your children.

yes, i have never been good at spelling, nor have i ever had a great grasp of correct grammar, but when things get pointed out to me, like you have so polietly done, i do try to learn from it, and correct myself next time.
I agree with you that education is the key, but the reason i got so frustrated is because many were given the facts and evidence yet still made the personal choice not to accept it or believe it, instead they reasoned it away with " its god's will ".
which will do nothing to help younger generations.

IndianOcean the Mother ELECTED to have another child even when she had 3 with clear signs of problems.... just because she was lucky that child was healthy does not make her any the less irresponsible for deciding to have yet another child when she had 3 deaf and blind children

But no one has proven me wrong? In fact some said above if you marry your first cousin you know what you're getting adn will get on better.

But I'd argue if you let these poor young people make their own choices indeed outside of their own racial and religious group and caste they would make even happier marriages. I can see the advantaeg of the first cousin thin - you know him, you know the wealth or otherwise of the family etc. Someone tell me why my guessed analysis is wrong. They seem very plausible reasons to marry first cousins. The European royalty did it for years for precisely that reason. You'd marry off the daughters of British kinds go cousins abroad to ensure Spain and UK were linked by blood not just marriage ties etc. Why should it be for any other different reasons in the Pakistani community? They hardly do it to breed healthier children. So if it's not because of better the devil you know and keep the money int he family and we trust our close family and we want to control young people tell me the reasons 50% of Brisith Pakistanis have married a first cousin or whatever the stats are?

Its wrong because (in both of your examples) you have implied that wealth is valued over the health of the children involved.

I work in an area where there are a lot of Plymouth Brethern. Its a small community and they only marry within their community, so close relations do marry. I've seen babies born with genetic conditions, more than would be expected.

I'd hazard a guess that the traditional Pakistani community and others where kinship marriage is popular would strongly favour marriage over cohabitation - happy to be proved wrong though.

Cohabitation is a side issue. Whether you're married or not if you have babies with a first cousin you have these problems, all groups have done. There were at lot in those FDLS groups in the USA too where just about everyone seems to be called Jessop.

I think wealth, family ties and status are valued above any possible complications.

This is because many children will be born healthy and the old men who make these marriage deals will not be the ones facing the agonising health problems of the children not born healthy.

Many families have close links with their villages in Pakistan and marriages are made to spread wealth within the family and make familial ties stronger.

The answer lies in persuading potential couples to undergo genetic screening before marriage.

semi-colon, they said that genetic testing in these circumstances isn't really the answer because only 40% of the conditions are even testable. The only solution is education that these marriage are not a good idea.

someone raised the point about small gene pool of ashkenasi jews - as tay sachs is testable, it has basically been erradicated within the community.

re: the point about co-habitation - well you can "cohabit" with your sibling but if you have a child, SS will take them away and arrest you for incest. If you don't have a child they can't prove you are not just sharing a house. No point in banning the marriages unless you also make it offence to have sexual relations with a cousin.

If someone drank heavily through their pregnancy, thus increasing the chance of a child having complications when born, would they receive any sympathy if they played the 'I didn't realise' card? No, I didn't think so.

I remember being when asked if I was related to DP in any way - first cousin? second cousin?

I remember thinking, 'well how often does that happen? Why do they bother asking?'

Well now I have my answer.

That was at my booking appt with DD1

"I'd hazard a guess that the traditional Pakistani community and others where kinship marriage is popular would strongly favour marriage over cohabitation - happy to be proved wrong though."

Yes but marriage needn't neccessarily mean a legal marriage registered by the state. I know a Muslim couple who were married in a religious ceremony and didn't bother making it legal at the time for reasons I can't remember. They consider themselves married, no question about it. The state can hardly stop a religious non-legally-binding ceremony from going ahead.

That said, I think it sometimes happens that 1st cousin marriages are favoured partly so as to help with immigration, e.g. if one of the cousins is still living in Pakistan etc. So, if that was an issue, they would (I think) need the marriage legally registered.

semi-colon, i was also when they asked if DP and I were related. until i saw that programme would not have believed it would happen other than in a few rare cases. i only have one male cousin roughly my age and to me that would have been (almost) like marrying my brother.

I wouldn't ban them but we need a lot more publicity of the risk and if there were a ban it would be of sex not marriage. I had someone from that area telling me recently he had deliberately had his religious marriage in England but not the civil one and his wife had no idea of the huge difference that made to her rights (she wasn't a very bright spark) and she thinks they are married and is called his wife by him but she's not his wife.