to think that we NEED libraries? This is horrific.

[StuckInTheMiddleWithYou]

Would MN like to run a campaign on this?

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/terence-blacker/terence-blacker-hands-off-our-public-libraries-2057131.html

"Nobody will die or suffer or live with chronic pain without a library."

Nobody will die without schools either. Do you propose we get rid of those too?

No, coley, because all of society would suffer without schools. Nobody will suffer without a library. A few might not like it, but that's about all.

Lots of people would not suffer if you did away with schools. Anyway why should people without children or whose children are adults subsidise education for those with school-age children?

This is the sort of reasoning people are being encouraged to adopt. Ridiculous, isn't it?

Who are you to say that nobody would suffer without libraries anyway?

Am I the only one who thinks there is no inherent value in a book per se? There is no merit in a library full of books unless they are good books that are worthy of being read. Just because something is published in book form doesn't make it worthwhile - the many autobiographies by 20 year old C list celebrities spring to mind.

I have not once found a non-fiction book I have been looking for in my area's library catalogue - not once. And I don't have the luxury of living anywhere near a university library so I am stuck. The only positive search result I have had was for one of the MN book club books eons ago - but there was one copy only in the whole area and that was on loan.

For my money a library full of mediocre and useless books is, well, useless. Spend some money on improving the stock or, to be frank, they may as well be turned into community centres.

I'm characterising a mindset - those that see the State as the line of first resort instead of last, those that don't think to use or set up charities/voluntary groups, those that see the answer to any problem they have or know of to be someone else's taxes to pay for the (normally) overly-bureaucratic solution.

I think it's widely accepted that, when push comes to shove, libraries comes fairly low down on any serious list of spending priorities (when compared to, for example, health, education, defence, welfare, transport, counter-terrorism, criminal justice and, er, just about anything else we pay for...).

It is ridiculous, becaue without state education, we won't have enough people to run the services neccesary for a civilisaed society.

We could still achieve that without libraries.

Suffering is relative. Out if interest, what sort of suffering do you think would be incurred by the loss of a library?

Also, are there no school libraries any more? Because if there are not, there should be.

My life would have been immeasurably impoverished without libraries. My children's lives too.

As has already been pointed out over and over again, not everyone can afford to buy books. It's important in a democratic, civilized society that everyone has access to knowledge, not just those that can afford it. A well-funded public library system is a statement of the value a society places on this.

It's depressing that these things need to be said.

"It's important in a democratic, civilized society that everyone has access to knowledge, not just those that can afford it. A well-funded public library system is a statement of the value a society places on this."

This is my problem. The libraries that my children and I have access to do not fit with this vision of a well funded public library system. Instead they are full of out dated bargain basement books that I would not trust as authorative sources of knowledge.

I find Tesco do not have the selection of "high brow" books available in Libraries. (or book shops).

With respect, that's not suffering though is it? Not to my mind anyway. Not in the same way as society would suffer without schools or hospitals. Or the way that individuals would suffer without the health service?

Not really relevant, I realise, but ask someone who lives in true poverty in India to compare a free health service to a free book service. I think I could guess wich they would choose.

Perhaps what we should be asking is how people would like to fund the library service, or what service they would prefer to lose instead? Because the simple fact is, we can't afford it all.

It's widely acknowledged that public libraries have been underfunded for years. Run them down and then people won't complain so much when you get rid of them. It's shit.

"authoratative" I mean

We don't live in a third world country, curly, do we?

Oh fgs, "authoritative". Blardy one handed typing.

Which is why I pointed out that that part of my post was irrelevant.

But we do live in a country that can't afford everything we are used to getting for free. Something has to give.

Well, if libraries are something we value then we can afford them. It's a choice, not a necessity. If we choose to cut libraries we are again hitting the least privileged in our society (because those that can afford to buy their books/internet access etc won't be affected). That's not on.

So who will support a rise in council tax to keep the libraries?

I wouldn't! But I assume that plenty of people that recieve CTB and have no idea how much CT actually is, would.

If the UK has literally run out of money, why are we continuing to spend out £Xbillion in overseas aid?

Perhaps it is because we are still in fact one of the world's wealthier countries. A country that can, in fact, afford to properly maintain its school buildings and fund its public libraries and (insert markers of a civilized society of your choice here).

It's not a simple choice between "get rid of libraries" and "increase council tax to keep libraries going" in any case. The scale of cuts has been a choice on the part of the government. They could have chosen to tackle the deficit over a longer period and they could have chosen to target different areas (like the things KM suggests). They could have avoided putting the burden on the poorest in society if they chose.

Good point Coley. I would cut overseas aid if I were boss of the country

I don't doubt that you would, curly