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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to consider going against consultants advice?

232 replies

TiredofYorks · 17/08/2010 17:55

DS1 (2.4) was born by emergency C section.

I am 36 weeks pg with DC2 and have just been to see the consultant. He said because of previous CS I am high risk and need to be in the consultant unit.

I asked if I definitely can't use the Midwife led unit (it is across the corridor from the consultant unit) and he said no, so I asked if that ruled out a water birth (there is one on the Cons unit) and he said yes as I have to be monitored throughout.

I then asked if I would have to be immobile, he said that there is one mobile monitor but if that is in use then yes I will be immobile and will have to stay on the bed.

I asked exactly what the risk is and he said 0.7%.

I know this is a low risk and I do think I'll cope better if I'm left to it (well I think so anyway) and also I really wanted a waterbirth.

So would I be unreasonable if I considered going against the consultants advice and opting to use the Midwife led unit anyway?

Sorry for the long post.

OP posts:
Decorhate · 17/08/2010 21:00

Haven't read all the replies but TofY, are you sure you will be accepted in the MW led unit if that's what you decide you want to do? I was hoping to got to a MW led unit for one of my dcs but due to problems with my bloods, they wouldn't accept me there in the end.

What I am trying to say is, they will have strict criteria on who they accept and you may not meet the criteria, regardless of whether you or anyone on MN thinks you should be allowed to give birth there...

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:02

Wot you lot

RubyBuckleberry · 17/08/2010 21:02

midnightsun - militants? isn't it a discussion. most people would obviously say that there is a middle ground but why can't there be a sharing of information?

Igglybuff · 17/08/2010 21:03

Tyler I'm sorry but I disagree. Maternal mortality has plummeted yes, but not purely due to medical intervention. You're forgetting about our better diet and general health. Eating better is not a medical intervention unless I'm very much mistaken Confused

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:03

That is for the delightful but poorly informed midnight.

RubyBuckleberry · 17/08/2010 21:04

'But some people might be more anxious thinking about what could be happening that they don't know about, without monitoring?'

That is true, so does monitoring actually make some people feel relaxed?

ThatDamnDog · 17/08/2010 21:04

Theochris, this 0.7% risk being quoted - that's the risk of uterine rupture. In a well-managed and monitored labour this complication should be identified and dealt with in minutes. It isn't the risk of foetal death - which, incidentally, is comparable in VBACs and first labours.

ThatDamnDog · 17/08/2010 21:06

Theochris, this 0.7% risk being quoted - that's the risk of uterine rupture. In a well-managed and monitored labour this complication should be identified and dealt with in minutes. It isn't the risk of foetal death - which, incidentally, is comparable in VBACs and first labours.

Igglybuff · 17/08/2010 21:08

midnight - militants?? This is AIBU Grin

deemented · 17/08/2010 21:09

When i was researching vbacs and risk of uterine ruptures i came across this -

VBAC and scar integrity,
or "Why my uterus isn't going to explode"
Myth: It takes two years or more for uterine scar tissue to heal.
Fact: Your uterus is just like any other cut that is bound with stitches or staples, and does all the healing it's going to in the first few weeks. While a few studies suggest that the risk of rupture (more on what "rupture" is later) is higher if you get pregnant within 18 months, it is still far less than 1%, and while it is often recommended to wait, this does not reflect whether or not a real risk exists following initial healing. Most authorities agree that by the time your fertility returns (2-3+ months), conception happens and the uterus begins to expand (12 weeks), healing is done. The gentle pressure of a slowly expanding uterus is unlikely to cause any damage, and since we don't go into labour immediately following conception it's likely a year or more would have passed since the surgery. Healing can continue even during pregnancy.
(taken from Birthlove.com)

From BIRTH AFTER CESAREAN by Bruce Flamm: "Rumor has it that its safer to wait several years after a cesearen section before attempting a vaginal birth. There's absolutely no evidence for this belief. Studies on wound healing have shown that tissue regains the majority of its strength within a few weeks of an operation. The tissue that gives a healing wound its strength is called collagen. According to a general surgery textbook, 'Collagen content of the wound tissues rises rapidly between the sixth and the seventeenth days but increase very little after the seventeenth day and none at all after the forty-second day.' Since the uterine scar is almost fully healed within weeks after a cesarean section there is no reason to postpone plans for another baby."

Myth: If you rupture, you and your baby will die.
Fact: Catastrophic ruptures are extremely rare, and much more likely if you have oxytocin induction, cyotec, prostaglandins or lay flat on your back unable to move around. Included in rupture statistics is harmless and asymptomatic dehiscences, which unfairly skews the numbers. When people think of rupture they think of a uterus imploding, they don't think of scar tissue pulling away from where it's gotten stuck, or a small break that heals easily and poses no risk to mother or baby. Dehiscences are the most common type of "rupture", by far. It is usually diagnosed when a second c-section is performed or the doctor physically puts his hand inside a woman's uterus and feels around after birth. Some evidence suggests that many dehiscences actually occur before labour begins.
Catastrophic rupture (the dangerous kind) more often happens due to uterine integrity as a whole (with the vast majority following labour augmentation). The cases of true rupture are not the 1-2% figure we hear all the time, that is for dehiscences. When a true rupture occurs, a cesarean must occur within 30 minutes (ideally 20) to prevent neurological damage to the baby. Death does not occur immediately. Most women attempting a home VBAC are well within 20-30 minutes of a hospital, particularly if 911 is called.
'A Guide to Effective Care in Pregnancy and Childbirth', which is a well-respected summary of evidence-based practice, says that the rate of reported uterine rupture has ranged from 0.09% to 0.8% for women with a single baby, head-down, who planned a vaginal birth after one previous lower-segment cesarean. The authors comment:
"To put these rates into perspective, the probability of requiring an emergency cesarean section for acute other conditions(fetal distress, cord prolapse, or antepartum hemorrhage) in any woman giving birth, is approximately 2.7%, or up to 30 times as high as the risk of uterine rupture with a planned vaginal birth after cesarean"
What does this mean for women who want a VBAC? Up to 99.91% of you will labour normally.
True rupture is not asymptomatic, and the first signs are a steadily falling heart rate (now heavily debated over whether or not this is a true indicator) and/or intense pain that you'll feel even with an epidural. While external fetal monitors, in theory, are meant to catch this kind of thing as it happens - they often do not. External fetal monitoring has not been shown to save any lives, and has only been shown to increase the amount of unnecessary c-sections being performed. It is just as effective, and safer overall, to have a nurse or midwife come in every so often and have a listen with the doppler or fetoscope - particularly during a contraction. This also keeps you off your back, where you are often strictly told to stay if you are hooked up to EFM. This position increases your chances of complications. Move around! Stay hydrated! Stay strong! Avoid drugs! Labour isn't made so you that you can lie back with your feet up.
Home dopplers and fetoscopes are available to rent or buy. Fetoscopes can be purchased online or at any medical supply store for $30 or under, and home dopplers can be rented for as little as $35-$40 a month. Do keep in mind that dopplers, being ultrasound, carry risks. A fetoscope poses no risk to the baby.

Risk of rupture also depends on the type of incision you received. Except in rare cases, modern c-sections are performed by low transverse incision (a horizontal scar just along your pubic bone, usually hidden by a bikini). The risk is highest with a vertical incision over the middle of the stomach. This requires more healing time as well.

VBAC.com reads:
Overall, attempted vaginal birth for women with a single previous low transverse cesarean section is associated with a lower risk of complications for both mother and baby than routine repeat cesarean section. The morbidity associated with successful vaginal birth is about one-fifth that of elective cesarean. Failed trials of labor, with subsequent cesarean section, involve almost twice the morbidity of elective section, but the lower morbidity in the 80% of women who successfully give birth vaginally means that overall women who opt for a planned vaginal birth after cesarean suffer only half the morbidity of women who undergo an elective cesarean section.
What does this mean? A repeat c-section is more dangerous than a VBAC. The problem is we don't hear that very often. Some women are only ever offered a repeat c-section by their doctors. If they are truly only ever done in event of "emergencies", how can one justify the risk of denying a woman a VBAC when it is clearly the safest route for both mother and baby?

A 10-year population-based study of uterine rupture.
Obstet Gynecol 2001 Apr;97(4 Suppl 1):S69
Baskett TF, Kieser KE.
Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Objective: To review the incidence, associated factors, and morbidity associated with uterine rupture.Methods: A 10-year (1988-1997) population-based review of 114,933 deliveries in one province.
Results: There were 39 ruptures: 16 complete and 23 dehiscence. Thirty-seven cases had undergone a previous cesarean delivery (34 lower transverse, 2 classical, 1 low vertical). Of the 114,933 deliveries, 11,585 (10%) were to women with a previous cesarean delivery. The incidence of uterine rupture in those undergoing a trial for vaginal delivery (4,516) was complete rupture (3/1000) and dehiscence (5/1000). Induction or augmentation of labor with oxytocics was associated with 50% of complete ruptures and 25% of dehiscence. There were no maternal deaths, but 33% of patients with complete ruptures required blood transfusion. There was one neonatal death attributable to uterine rupture.
Conclusion: Induction and augmentation of labor are confirmed as risk factors for uterine rupture. Fetal heart rate abnormality was the most reliable diagnostic aid. Serious maternal and perinatal morbidity was relatively low. PMID: 11275210
Shamelessly stolen from Norwegian_wood's journal:
Here are some statistics to put the risk of rupture in perspective:

  • Your risk of rupture from a horizontal LSCS scar is: 1% = 1 in 100 VBAC deliveries (this is the highest statistic)

  • Your risk of being diagnosed with dystocia (baby too big) is: 10 - 12% = 10 in 100 vaginal deliveries

  • Your risk of a breech baby at full term is: 3 - 7% = 3 in 100 deliveries

  • The risk of your baby being diagnosed with fetal distress during labour: 2% = 2 in 100 deliveries

  • Your risk of having twins is : 0.4% = 4 in 1000 births

  • Your risk of dying from a rupture of the uterus is: 0.0095% = 9.5 in 100 000 VBAC deliveries

  • Your risk of dying during any vaginal delivery is: 0.0098% = 9.8 in 100 000 vaginal deliveries

( re-read that one, "Your risk of dying in ANY vaginal delivery is 9.8 in 100,000, compared to a death risk of 9.5 in 100,000 with a VBAC" )

  • Your risk of dying during an uncomplicated vaginal delivery is: 0.0049% = 4.9 in 100 000 uncomplicated vaginal delivery.

  • Your risk of dying during any ceasarean section is: 0.0409% = 40.0 in 100 000 ceasarean sections

  • Your risk of dying during an elective repeat ceasarean section: 0.0184% = 18.4 in 100 000 elective csecs

  • The risk of your baby developing cerebal palsy is: 0.25% = 2.5 in 1000 births

  • The risk of your baby developing cerebal palsy after fetal distress: 2.84% = 2.8 in 100 fetal distress births

  • The risk of your baby dying from a rupture of the uterus is: 0.095% = 9.5 in 10 000 VBAC deliveries

  • The risk of your baby dying during any VBAC delivery is : 0.2% = 2 in 1000 VBAC births

  • The risk of your baby dying during any type of delivery is: 0.12% = 1.2 in 1000 births

midnightsun · 17/08/2010 21:09

Yes, electronic monitoring (the final 6 hours) made me feel more relaxed than I had been during the previous 24 hours at home then in the midwife-led unit, where they listened to the baby with an ear trumpet every other hour.

Or maybe it was the epidural. Who knows. What I do know is that I was shit scared with the midwives and felt relaxed in hospital with all the bells and whistles.

So that spiel about consultants and monitoring never failing to making the mother stressed, therefore the baby more stressed, and therefore increasing risks of a complicated outcome - it's BS.

deemented · 17/08/2010 21:09

Sorry - c&p from my notes.

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:10

It is not just a case of anxiety. Long labours, exhausted mother, exhausted baby .. to call it stress is to minimise the real physical effects. I think that is deliberate confiscation. Stress does have its own physical effects of course, alongside exhaustion.

Midnight don't pretend you are aching for a middle ground when you accuse people who have a perfectly respectable opinion of lunacy. That is awfully passive aggressive.

Theochris · 17/08/2010 21:12

Cheers ThatDamnDog, any stats on how it affects the maternal mortality/morbidity?

I still think I would listen to the people who had got medical experience and my notes in front of them rather than random strangers on a forum, if that makes me a nodding dog, then so be it!

midnightsun · 17/08/2010 21:12

Sorry, I'm new. Didn't realise purpose of AIBU was scaremongering and ridicule ("nodding dogs") of those who trust medics. Thank you for educating me, Appletrees, Iglybuff and RubyBuckleberry

Very charming you are too.

RubyBuckleberry · 17/08/2010 21:13

its not BS. it was BS for you midnightsun. and it worked better for you to be monitored. i suppose the point is that if you have all the information then you can make a decision that you are happy with and you are empowered and the baby is safe.

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:13

Confiscation ha ha. Obfuscation of course. My phone thinks it knows best.

RubyBuckleberry · 17/08/2010 21:14

deemented thanks for that!

midnightsun · 17/08/2010 21:14

Passive aggressive? What in the world is that? When someone disagrees?

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:15

Oh aren't we sensitive. Don't dish it then. Far more insults coming the other way.

midnightsun · 17/08/2010 21:16

RubyBuckleberry I said that it was BS that monitoring inevitably makes the mother (every mother) stressed. It was being bandied about as if that was fact, universal and obvious.

Appletrees · 17/08/2010 21:19

It's in this case when you are exceeding rude and then throw your hands in the air saying "I only want to find the middle ground". yeah right.

OnEdge · 17/08/2010 21:19

Midnightsun i am with you on this, they are making it up as they go along.

Igglybuff · 17/08/2010 21:21

midnight if you start calling people militant don't be surprised when they bite back. I tried to be light hearted in my response, hence the Grin but that clearly was not obvious.

If you read my posts you'll see I'm not anti monitoring or medical intervention. I am against unnecessary intervention though. Where have I been scaremongering? Please quote me as I don't recall. I think it is scaremongering to claim that we're taking a huge risk by having babies as nature intended.

As you're new, please help yourself to a Biscuit

RubyBuckleberry · 17/08/2010 21:21

so if deemented post is all true, why on earth is the OP's consultant wanting her to have a CS??? OP??