In wishing that Members of the Taleban should be shot

[Alouiseg]

For the crimes against women that I'm currently reading about.

Our troops are over there whilst teenage girls are being flogged for walking out of a house with a man, a widow is being stoned for adultery. Because "in accordance with Islam they must be severely punished."

Why hav'nt we wiped these lunatic women haters off the face of the earth and why won't more followers of Islam publicly condemn them.

Alouiseg there are plenty of people on MN who would argur that misogyny in Britain is so entrenched that it is in fact sanctioned by the government.

Misogyny is one thing, comparing it to the torture and abuse of women being stoned and flogged is quite another.

I think Riven means it doesn't have an effective government which can rule the country and enforce laws. Most of the country is ruled by warlords.

A lot of men who join the Taleban are not that into it, but it's the only employment there is. It's a terrible situation with no obvious solution. I have a friend who was an aid worker in Kabul until recently (trying to provide alternative emploiyment to discourage people from joining the Taleban). She was saying that if all the fighting stopped tomorrow, it would still take 50yrs for Afghanistan to catch up to Pakistan in terms of economic development.

Tragically, if you look at photos of Kabul in the 1970's, there are hardly any women wearing headscarves, never mind being unable to leave the house.

Please don't misunderstand me, I would love to see an easy solution but asking the forces to pick them off isn't it, though I'm sure you know that too. I would love to find a solution but i think the best we can do at the moment is try to stabilise the country and go from there.

Why hav'nt we wiped these lunatic women haters off the face of the earth

is your name Dubya!!!! that what the war is Afghanistan is about!!!!

they are vile, but you know what there are some things the west cannot change

Sadly it's not just a case of telling the men not to treat women they way they do.

The abuse structure is societal now, ingrained in the way families are formed and develop.

The man is absolute ruler in his house, He gets what he wants when he wants it, literally 24 hours a day. If he doesn't have this he will at best moan. His contribution to the household is largely financial only, housework, child rearing, cooking, cleaning, tidying up of any kind are simply not his job. That is women's work. If he wants to come in at 4am and wants sex, he has a right to it, and she will have to supply. Otherwise he will leave her, and the kids and she will literally be destitute.

Mothers have their children, and tell them what to expect. Their daughters will be told to put up with everything cos they have to, and the boys who are never told No, are told they can have whatever they want, or just get someone who will obey. If her husband beats her, and she runs home to her family, the father will take her straight back to the husband.

If a man doesn't scream and shout abuse at his wife for what she is wearing, doing or whatever, She thinks he doesn't care. If he tries to help out, she would prevent him from doing so for fear of what others would think of her, and him. It's simply not the done thing for a father to be a good parent/partner. People will talk.

Add to this the demonisation of the west by the same small minded 'men' of 'religion', and if we say, that's not how it should be, and that women are free in the west, they will recoil in horror. They are taught to see all things western as disgusting, depraved and threatening to their way of life.

You have to admit they have a point when you see the behaviour exhibited by yoofs in town centres off their faces on booze and drugs, promiscuity, the ridiculous way our daughters desire to model themselves on 'Icons' like Paris Buddy Hilton, or Jordan or whoever. The ridiculous and bizarre sexualisation of children too, it's all part of our modern western society.

With freedom comes responsibility, sadly our freedom seems to have gone slightly too far, and it is jeopardising the fight for freedom for women that really need it.

It's not the Taliban per say that are at the root of this societal misogeny, it's the head of the household, it's the teenage son. The more we shout and say this is not on. women are equal, the more they will retreat to the dark ages, and the more women will suffer.

The realisation has to come from within, from Islamic sources, from enlightened islamic men (OMG, big ask, much?) It will take decades, generations of continued and consistent pressure from such rare sources for it even to make a dent.

In the meantime, the point about western society allowing the freedom of religion, it's all well and good on paper, but sadly we don't live in an ideal society, and the people making these judgements based on fairness, are seriously living in cloud cuckoo land.

If you look at religion in general, and in depth at Islam, on paper they are all positive, they are all wonderful.. if practised how we would interpret them.

But religion has been hijacked, both Christianity and Islam fwiw, by men with agendas. Certainly in Islam, it would appear for any individual to stand up and say, Er, no, that's not fair, and that's not right. To challenge the interpretation of the bloke in the beard in the mosque... At best, he'd be told he's far from Allah, and at worst he could be threatened.

The measure of a person in countries such as Egypt is set by how Islamic you are, how religious. But I've heard the vile rantings screeching from the tinny speakers of a Friday, they are not men of God, they are men of Hate. And Extremism is severely restricted in Egypt.... I dare say in less policed places, it can only be worse than what I've seen and described here.

So to answer the AIBU, YANBU. I know it's not civilised, but tbh, if there were no Taliban, life for all Afghanis would be better. They themselves say that life under the soviets was somehow better than life under Taliban rule.

Sorry, that was longer than I anticipated..

I have to say it's actually very pleasing to see such intellectual understanding of the functionings and reasonings of the Afghani conflict and the issues surrounding it.

Good work ladies! :)

One issue that doesn't get talked about very often is that because our troops have morals and obey the Geneva Convention they are not allowed to take down known militants.

My BiL was in Afhgan with the Royal Marines in late 2008/early 2009 and he said they would often be on patrol down a street and suddenly a convoy of men on bikes would fly past them. They knew full well that these men were getting ahead to set up an ambush but they were not allowed to do anything unless they were attacked first.

Also the involvement of other nations in supporting the Taliban. Again my BiL said they picked up men talking on the radio using dialect not used in Afghanistan - most of them spoke in an Iranian dialect - and there were rumours that Checheyn (spl?) snipers were working with the Taliban to pick off coalition troops.

My BiL lost 2 friends in a RPG attack whilst he was there

. Our troops are very moral, not sure how well this will go down but a recent dinner party discussion led to the conclusion that we should "let" the Israelis sort out Iran, which would lead to a bit of order in Afghanistan.

MissHissyFit I'm sorry but I do not think that the Afghans or any other nation "has a point" where the appalling treatment of women is concerned regardless of how a minority behave in city centres.

Erm no, I didn't say they have a point in treating women appallingly, I said somehow they had a point in not listening to the west for a role model in societal behaviour.

They use the bad behaviour of the minority as an excuse. Remove this ridiculous thug culture, and worse the glorification of it, and end this sense of entitlement to 'do what the hell I want and bugger the consequences' and we would have a better standing in the world at large.

The behaviour exhibited every weekend, in our town centres, hospitals etc due to excess of alcohol and lack of self control brought about by the last government and there 24 hour drinking, (cafe culture ) means that the good messages our society does have, of inclusiveness, tolerance, acceptance and personal freedom is totally drowned out by the bad behaviour of the few.

The ridiculous commercial sexualisation of our children, our daughters in school skirts that barely skim their bottoms, make up for toddlers, mums paying for boob jobs for teenagers, the list goes on and on. You couldn't make any of it up. Society has gone mad.

Sad to say, but I fear you took one remark from my post totally out of context.

There is literally never any excuse for women to be treated at any time less than a man, or any living thing on this earth for that matter. I've lived among similar minded 'people' to these 'men'.

I would not do that again. Ever.

I would fight tooth and nail to never submit to such control or inequality again. I gave thanks to god every day for the men and women that fought so long and hard so that women gained equal rights in our lands.

The men that call the shots in such Eastern societies are not reasonable, they are unenlightened, and are encouraged not to be. They are men who would have their entire way of life threatened by relaxing the demands and controls on women.

As hard as I would fight to preserve the position I was raised to know I held, they will use any and every excuse in the book to undermine the message of freedom and equality when it threatens their lifestyle and standing.

Sadly the badly behaved minority does much to support their view that the West is bad.

Afghanistan is indeed a mess and a disgrace when it comes to women's rights, or actually human rights in general BUT I don't think the military option is the answer. Sending in troops to Afghanistan and Iraq has done nothing but strengthen extremism and anti-Western feeling in these countries. People won't accept new ideas if they're forced on them.

It wouldn't work if Islamic countries tried to impose their principles on Britain either, after all. Take Islamic finance as an example: it actually makes a lot of sense to control the making of money from money and not allow extortionate lending. Irresponsible, predatory lending is something that has almost ruined our economies in the West. Yet while most Western people would be open to the ideas in Islamic finance, if Saudi Arabia turned up with a platoon of diehard soldiers to impose Islamic finance on the West (bizarre scenario!), people would fight them to the death and see it as cultural imperialism. This is despite the fact that Islamic finance principals make a lot of sense. It's the same with women's rights in Afghanistan. It makes complete sense for men to treat the mother of their children with dignity and to want to educate and invest in their daughters/sisters and talk to them as equals - yet if it's imposed from outside, it'll never happen.

What would really help Afghanistan is if a group of right-thinking Islamic countries (Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey etc) got together to try and encourage cultural change and work with the Afghan govt to bolster women's rights and encourage a more moderate take on Islamic culture. These countries could try to show the Afghans that it's possible to be a modern country and still retain your Islamic values. I don't understand why moderate Islamic countries don't try to spread this message to other Islamic countries. Saudi Arabia spends a lot of money spreading Wahhabism worldwide so why doesn't e.g. Turkey spend money on trying to develop moderate, modern Islam? The voice of moderate Islam seems very weak and the West interfering - militarily or politically - only makes things worse.

Inmyprime- I agree but I think there are a number of issues.

Firstly, there are parallels to why the other African nations won't condemn Mugabe- they see it as a betrayal if they criticise another Islamic state, however much they disagree with what's going on there. Perhaps the moderate Islamic leaders are worried that by being seen to criticise another Islamic state they are going to whip up the fanatics in their own countries.

Secondly, my understanding is that Turkey is a secular state, like France. On that basis, they cant really lead the charge, nor would they want to. Their priority is to be accepted into the EU so if anything they are trying to downplay the Islam card.

Thirdly, not all the Islamic states actually like one another. The Arab nations tend to stick together and frankly view many other Islamic states (eg Pakistan)pretty disparagingly(massive superiority complex going on). Any opposition to Saudi probably has to come from within the arab block (UAE probably the best bet)

Also, there's the matter of cash. Saudi can basically say or do what it likes because they are sitting on the world's largest and lowest cost oil reserves (£10/barrel extraction cost). They dont have to rely on ties with the outside world. Most other nations dont have the luxury of taking that viewpoint and certainly many dont want to risk a "clash" with Saudi.

Agrred with Bagged - Turkey is not in any sort of a position to tell Saudi what to do. The only states that stand a decent chance are UAE (Abu Dhabi's the only one in a strong financial position at the moment) or Qatar. Both these countries are quietly trying to spread the message of moderate and peaceful Islam but there's a very long way to go. The problem is that it's a very different thing to do politically to stand up to Saudi they have a massive population and a massive amount of money and they do fight back!

LittleMiss sorry... You're completely right.

Agree about Arab attitudes to Pakistan. Interestingly a Pakistani-origin friend of mine says many Pakistanis see Saudi as almost 'better Muslims' or take their teachings very seriously, anyway. It's where the religion started - like Rome being the home of Catholicism.

I expect when the oil runs out, in about half an hour according to most climate "experts", Saudi will be in a much, much weaker position. It's got nothing else except oil, I can't see tourism taking off anytime soon.

sadly aloiseg, you do know who it'll all be taken out on don't you? You know who'll suffer more, be oppressed even more than they are today?

Yup, Same old, same old. :(

This video should cheer you lot up. Lots of dead Taliban on the end of sniper bullets.

www.viddler.com/explore/jpozadzides/videos/26/

They just need to teach the women how to use the rifles, that would be justice.

"I expect when the oil runs out, in about half an hour according to most climate "experts", Saudi will be in a much, much weaker position"

Almost certainly. Saudi has virtually no economy except oil and a very poorly educated population.

However to be fair, you cant tar all Saudis with the same brush. There are some younger, educated people who dont accept the status quo and the King is trying to modernise/reform with some success, but reform is at a creeping pace as they cant risk getting the fanatics up in arms.