To want to tell people this?

[SecretNickname]

With regard to mothers who kill themselves and their children:

Depression is a vile, vile illness. Many, many people commit suicide when in the grip of it, when you are so low that all you can do is lie on the floor weeping and you can't ever see a time when you won't be doing that. I think it's such a tragedy that it makes people take their own lives, when careful support and counselling could help them learn to manage it...or it could not. Not everyone can learn to manage their depression, or even realise they have it. Some people have people around them who don't take it seriously as an illness and say things like 'look at your lovely children! You have nothing to be depressed about!' and 'pull yourself together'.

The only thing that has stopped me killing myself at times, when in the grip of a depresseive episode, has been the unbearable thought of leaving my children motherless and what that would do to them. I have been very aware on many an occasion that it is only one step to realising that if I can't continue in this life, and leaving my children motherless due to suicide would be highly likely to create a life for them full of depression and hideousness, then the most logical option would be to kill us all. I never, ever let myself get that far. Whenever I've felt suicidal, I've called the samaritans or my mum or a friend and sobbed and sobbed and talked and talked until the suicidal feelings have gone. And then I've talked and talked to people to try and continue getting better at managing it.

TBH, I think the method for this particular woman does suggest something more than desperate depression - you'd have to be pretty angry to stab your children, as well as just despairing. But I think it's all to easy to be vile to these mothers who may be doing the absolute best thing they can think of for their children at that time.

It is desperately tragic and sad that these women think that killing everyone would be the best option - better than killing herself and leaving her children dealing with the aftermath. I am lucky and grateful that I have the support and love to have never got to that point, and the intelligence and knowledge to know where to get emergency help when I've needed it. And the awareness to understand my illness and how to recognise when it is creating a situation that is out of my control and to know how to bring it back into my control.

You have no right to tell other people what they can do with their sympathy. And your own experience understandably colours your viewpoint considerably, you seem unable to differentiate motivations.

I posted today on the other thread. I too understand. You are very brave to write it. It's a hard thing to admit those thoughts have ever entered your head. I know.

Of course you did, you clearly said " or even warrants any sympathetic urges to their killers".

Its about understanding motivations, not making excuses or saying its ok. How do you expect to try and prevent these things happening if you make no attempt at getting to why?

I just cant understand why a parent would kill a child.
Its so wrong , i cant see how having depression would make you think that to murder your child(ren) would be the best option.
It cannot be just depression that causes it , there must be something else wrong with the people (men and women , not just mothers) who do this.

Depression is a monster though, droves. You should be grateful you don't understand it because if you have even an inkling of recognition of what that mother might have been thinking, it means you have been to hell and back.

Its so much easier to say that though, theres just something wrong with them, when the fact is that anyone can end up in places they never thought possible. Its easier for you all to give them a label of evil because it makes them not like you, and you don't have to try and understand it, and it makes you not responsible either.

I'm hiding this thread now, its upsetting me too much.

i'm with you on this Posie

my ex h had depression,apparently......he was considered such a danger to us he has been allowed NO contact.....none.

just as well really. the judge listened after i insisted on full asessment of his mental health

I respect your posts Altinkum and I agree with what you say.

I think there is a real danger in turning this into a black and white situation - either someone is severely depressed and therefore we need to 'understand their motive' and sympathise, or, they are of sound mind and therefore should be held entirely responsible.

Our personality traits, our upbringings, our moral compass, our motivations... all these things are a huge spectrum. Take sex abusers for example. There is evidence to show that a very high proportion of convicted sex offenders were themselves abused as children. Therefore, it's entirely true that being abused as a child makes you statistically more likely to abuse as an adult. Does it mean that everyone who is abused as a child will go on to abuse others? No. Because there are elements of personal responsibility. People have choices to react to situations and experiences. And I don't just mean the choice whether to kill or not in the heat of the moment; I mean all the choices that lead up to it. For example, if the woman had been diagnosed with a mental illness, was she following professional advice? Because I know several people with mental illnesses who have chosen to drink quite heavily, and smoke, despite the medical evidence to show that this will exacerbate their condition. These are just examples, but the point is, life is not black and white. We all have different life experiences, no one has had the perfect upbringing, and indeed many people have to face horrendous problems in life, or are born with a predisposition to depression or other illness, and it's how individuals respond to what life throws at them which measures who we are.

It's also worth considering that there are multiple factors that lead up to a particular tragic incident, and plenty more people who could/might have harmed themselves or someone else but who got treatment in time, who were prevented from acting by some random turning up on the doorstep or indeed who got such apocalyptic food poisoning that they were too busy being sick to kill themselves/someone else. Sometimes busy docotrs misdiagnose a mental illness and send the person away with a packet of Prozac when what the person needed was sectioning. Sometimes a person with MH issues is prevented from seeking proper help by other family members who think that they should 'pull themselves together' or trust in the power of prayer. Sometimes an acute psychotic episode comes on with almost no warning.
IN the vast majority of cases of severe mental illness, help is obtained before something like this happens. But pitchforking, squawking and assertions that you would never ever do such a thing are fairly pointless.

I can understand why a parent would kill their child before killing themselves- they see the damage done to children of suicides and believe (however misguidedly) that their children would be better off dead than left behind.

Yes- it does not sound rational, but people who are suicidally depressed do not have the capacity to make rational judgments usually.

I feel so much pity for people of either gender who end up in that position.

" I do not believe that a mum who kills who has depression, is the reason she became a murder"

Then you don't know the first thing about it.

Whatever, its not all about you you know. And its not a matter of your opinion. It is a FACT that severe clinical depression has led women to kill their children. It does not matter what your opinion is on that, it is still a fact.

Now fuck off with your opinions, like I said, you don't know shit.

My heartfelt condolences to all concerned with that story, and the many others that have been in the news recently . And thoughts to all posters who have been touched by suicide.

If I could ask for one thing of society it would be to view depression as a serious medical issue as we do with a broken leg.

People do not chose to be depressed. Nor can they "pull themselves out of it".

It takes time, patience and access to help.

I wish we would be more understanding of those issues and do more to help our friends and relatives who are depressed.

I count myself in this group. I wish this time last year I had realised my BIL was depressed again, and not just quiet.

Then maybe he wouldnt have felt his only option was to do what he did in September.

Maybe then other people would not have to suffer as my DH's family have and we would not have to read stories such as these in the paper.

Bonnie that last post was bang outt of order. She does know about it, she was on the receiving end of it for long enough - just because she doesn't share your opinion doesn't make her wrong - she obviously has enough experience of people in this situation to feel so strongly about it.

FWIW - I agree, I don't understand depressions very well, although I should, I know it make people do things they wouldn't normally do but I do feel involving your children in that is another thing all together.

Being on the wrong end of makes you even less likely to be able to understand, wouldn't you say.

I apologise for my rudeness but I stand by the point. It isn't about opinions, its not a debateable thing. It IS.

BigBadMummy - In my experience though people who are depressed don't want others to know they are so hide it very convincingly - how are you supposed to recognised the signs of someone who hides their worries and issues so well that they look like someone without a care in the world ?

It does seem like every other person has 'depression' these days tho.......how true is that?

Oh FFS not all depression leads to psychotic or violent behaviour, not even if untreated. Many people who suffer from an episode of depression get treatment, get better and never lift a finger against anyone else. Sometimes depression is reactive ie a response to a particular triggering situation (bereavement, bullying, dramatic change in life circumstances) and when the external problem is solved, the depression improves.

:( Altinkum. How awful for you