AIBU to think that a toddler shouldn't be in a car without a seat no matter how short a distance?

[DetectivePotato]

A friend of mine often gives another friend a lift. The friend with the car has her DD in her carseat and the other friend who gets a lift has a DS 4 and DD who is not 3 yet. Usually it is only a few streets away, but I personally wouldn't be comfortable about this. However I met up with them the other day and it was a journey that was a good 6-8 miles away. I asked if she had given them a lift and she said "yes its only up the road"

I asked what about if she was stopped by a police car and she just sort of looked at me a bit vaguely and didn't really answer.

AIBU to think that trips like this are not a good idea? I know when we were all younger things were not as strict as they are now, I used to sit in the back of a van on a beanbag but not at 3 and 4 years old.

Ok, this may come across as rather snipey, but FGS! Find another bloody crusade! Yes, it's dangerous to have your child in a car without a carseat - so is travelling by bus/coach/train where it is not mandatory and would probably be more dangerous for the child if the bus/coach/train were to be involved in an accident! Frankly, given the way certain bus drivers handle their buses where I live, it's a bleeding hazard just being able to see a bus, let alone ride in it!

Those of you who have the luxury of driving and having your own car can be as bloody smug as you like. I don't drive, nor does my partner. In the event that we are caught short and have to take a taxi to get from A to B, I will ask in advance if the taxi firm has a carseat. If not, what the hell are we supposed to do? Walk 20 miles from an airport to our destination?! I mean, why not, seeing as that would probably be safer in relative terms than taking DS on a bus/coach/train where we would probably have to fold up his pushchair and hold him whilst travelling. If I'm on my own with my DS (which frequently happens), am I supposed to be able to handle a buggy, a baby, 1/2 suitcases PLUS a toddler carseat because I can't be guaranteed if I have to get into a car that the person driving will have a carseat available?

Of course carseats should be used where available. At the same time, sometimes, you just have to take a calculated risk and be prepared to accept the consequences. This probably makes people who have no choice but to travel sans car seat pretty agonised, let alone having to deal with Judgy McJudgy who thinks you don't give a damn and are akin to a reckless murderer!

JarethTheGoblinKing, I'm usually not a sweary parent in public but frankly, you would have gotten the same (if not a more vociferous) reaction from me if you'd dared to shout at me in the manner you described above. Who the hell do you think you are to shout at me/someone else, all because you have made an assumption from a snapshot image that a parent doesn't give a damn?! And before you say, well, they had a carseat, you wouldn't have, the end result would still be the same - a child not in a carseat. Of course, perhaps you'd reach a different conclusion if you were to make proper enquiries as to why a child isn't strapped into a carseat, but somehow, I doubt you'd be capable of such a slow-measured and well-thought out reaction if you are usually so quick to rush to judgement.

Sorry, that was a bit long, but it's one of my ranty subjects!

Asana we are in the same carless boat as you but I don't think people are cross about our occasional minicab use but the serial offenders in their own cars.

I have seen people pulled over for it in London btw.

Stealth - yes for 2-3 year olds you need that pinning down to prevent chaos (if only long distance trains/planes had that option) but for older dcs then the results were interesting.

hmm - I can't drive either! We get lots of trains and buses... But I think that minicab firms should be made to have car seats in the office so that they could be used for trips booked in advance...Not possible in all cases I know but it would be a start.

Trouble is though would you trust them to be newish and fitted properly and never to have been in a crash?

Asana If you don't drive and don't have a carseat then that is a different story. You don't have to buy a carseat if you are not going to use a car, although I don't know many parents who never get in a car.

What is worse and quite frankly just stupid is parents driving their lo's around on their laps when there is a functional car seat in the ar. There is no need to make a journey without strapping the kids in. If the child won't be strapped in then you make allowances in your journey time to take the time to strap them in and maybe make another adult passenger sit with them to entertain them and keep them safe.
I had to do this with my DD who kept wriggling out of her straps when we were on the motorway. My friend sat with her and calmed her down and kept her in the seat so we could get to a service station and take a break. If I had been on my own then I would of found a convenient place to stop off the motorway and calmed her myself.
Her life is too important to let her get away with not liking being straped in.

Asana

Just because I have a car, does not mean that I am smug about it. Try getting off your high horse.

My post was not about a 'crusade' as you put it, merely whether a non essential journey is worth putting your child at risk. There are too many idiots on the road these days and I just don't think it is worth it just to go to a play area.

hello - Omni well I think that there should be a law that they should be. Unenforceable maybe but at least it would make some more of them make the effort....

I don't mean a law that you can only get in a taxi if they have a car seat, but a law that taxi firms should have a (new safe etc) car seat available for pre-booked journeys. Might push fares up a bit but can't see why its impossible....I would much prefer it if DS was strapped in but as a non-driver we need to take the odd taxi. And of course lots of trains and buses!

DetectivePotato, your post may not have been a "crusade" but there are other posts on here which seem to be, hence my response was not just specifically directed at you, but to numerous posters on the thread. If I wished to direct my answer to you specifically, then I would do that.

So, DetectivePotato, in the specific case you mentioned in your OP, one of the children was under 3 years old and, IIRC, they are not allowed to travel without carseats (unless in a taxi). Would it have made you feel better if they had then hired a taxi to take them to their destination, given that another carseat was not readily available at the time? Taking your children to the park is a "non-essential" journey. Is it worth doing so if you would be putting them at risk simply by walking out of your own front door? We all take calculated risks everyday; sometimes things work out for the best, sometimes they don't. All because a parent does not automatically subscribe to the way you choose to do things (short of breaking the law) does not necessarily make you any better than them (smugger, yes, if you firmly believe yourself to be right regardless, but not necessarily better). I'm sure there are certain risks you would take which would horrify those other parents, and vice versa.

Well, it is not that the child is at higher risk than if it were travelling in a taxi. Having said that, without car seat the child may smash against a window exactly in the same way if there was a crash, whether in a taxi or friends car, whether in a short trip or a longer one.

I think YANBU, but if you ask the twat of my ex... you are.

"If I wished to direct my answer to you specifically, then I would do that."

There is no need to be so rude. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post.

I think I'd rather my child travelled in an old carseat than no carseat at all. If I was taking a taxi and all they had was a carseat which looked 20 years old, I'd use it.

Harder to tell whether one has been in an accident I suppose, but is it more dangerous to use a carseat which has been slightly damaged or not use one at all? Does anyone know?

Bertie it is supposed to be more dangerous for an over 2 to be travelling in an incorrectly fitted carseat than an adult seat belt - dont know about a damaged one though.

DS is 3y3m and we have his booster ready. Reading that book has made me feel a bit happier about using it on the odd occasion rather than his proper car seat iyswim.

DetectivePotato, it wasn't rude - just factual. In the same way as I specifically responded to JarethTheGoblinKing by stating his/her username, there would be no mistake that I was directing that part of my post to him/her in particular.

Of course, telling someone to get off their high horse is the height of good manners

I still stand by what I said. I'm sure there are journeys I have made with my DS in black cabs or licensed minicabs that would be classed as non-essential by some on here, but I obviously thought that they were, hence why I would be getting a taxi in the first place, as opposed to getting on public transport. And the only difference between me and other parents that don't put their under 3s in carseats is that by travelling in a taxi, I'm not breaking the law whereas they are. The risk is still the same.

For those that are so horrified about children travelling without carseats, have you ever taken your children on a train/bus/coach without any sort of restraints in place? Have you ever travelled on a train/coach/bus and either not had a seatbelt available or just not bothered using the one that was? It's the same risk you are taking as those who travel in cars without their children in carseats, except that the latter are breaking the law (in certain instances).

I always think that a carseat is better than nothing. However, judging parents who don't travel with their children in carseats comes pretty far down my list of stuff to worry about compared to the numerous other things that people do to/with their children that affect the latter negatively.

Then again, that's just my personal opinion. I wouldn't expect everyone to subscribe to it.

I looked right on a ferry eysterday and smiled enormously at the beautiful baby (6 months?) sat next to me- until my Dad pointed out said baby was sat on Mum's lap for driving - Mum obviously knew score as was sat outside belt etc

Why????

However, judging parents who don't travel with their children in carseats comes pretty far down my list of stuff to worry about compared to the numerous other things that people do to/with their children that affect the latter negatively

If they have a seat fitted tho why not use it?

That wouldn't bother me too much omni, unless the seat was ridiculously old they have instructions printed on them so I'd check the fitting myself

Who knows, Debs75? Probably a myriad of reasons; some reasonable, some not so reasonable (depending on who's doing the thinking/judging). Growing up in a country where you would fit as many people into a car as one could handle, it's just something that doesn't particularly shock or horrify me.

And no, I don't think cramming a car way past its capacity is a good thing, but then again, there was no properly functioning form of public transport, nor were most people rich enough to be able to buy a big enough/more than one car or take a taxi, so they probably felt that they didn't have much choice in the matter. Carseats just didn't (and probably still don't) factor into the matter. That may not be the case here in the UK, but I guess my apathy remains the same.

Cars seats and seatbelts substantially reduce the risk of being killed or seriously injured in an accident, by about half. However, the absolute rate of death of children in car accidents is low. So car seats substantially reduce a risk that is in absolute terms low (a few tens per year deaths, a few hundreds per year serious injuries). So if everyone who ever put a child in a car used a car seat, it would prevent perhaps ten deaths and a hundred and fifty serious injuries per year. Any death is a death that shouldn't happen, but in absolute terms it's a very small number. It would also be interesting to correlate that with the skill and accident history of the driver: the enthusiasm of insurance companies to charge a great deal less for older drivers with ncds versus younger drivers without implies their relative risk is a great deal more than a factor of two.

Asana the comparison with the buses and trains etc is a bit irrelevant as the outcome of when a bus crashes and when a car crashes at the same speed are very different. And the bus is substantially less likely to crash in the first place.

Coaches are a different thing but they do have seatbelts mostly - at least the ones the school uses do.

YANBU..I absolutely agree with you, they should always be strapped in.

I can remember my sister-in-law being so thick one day. When they were going home from my house she actually put her son on her lap and put the seat belt across the two of them..I physically stopped her and explained that if they stopped suddenly her weight against the belt would crush her son.

She looked at me as though I was mental! then went home with her strapped in and holding her son. Cant believe the stupidity of some people.

I've travelled a lot with my DS (now 2) and had problems booking a taxi. They all expected me to provide a carseat. Now, I had no intention of lugging a big carseat with me overseas and back just for the sake of a taxi ride. So I found a disabled taxi that would let me on with a pram and kept his number. Just trawl the taxi ranks and you'll probably come across one.

By the way YANBU. In private cars, it's against the law after all.