to wonder where my GP and midwife get their information from (re: breastfeeding while pregnant)

[BlueBubblegum]

DD is almost 1years old, still breastfeeding her 3 times a day. I'm just over 3months pregnant (15weeks).

When I went to the GP to get a referral, I told him I'm still breastfeeding and intend to continue throughout the pregnancy and up until she's two if I can manage it. He strongly advised against this, he said my supply would decrease and she wouldnt get enough. So I said I'd supplement her when that does happen and for now I think she's getting enough as she doesnt seem to be complaining, seems as content as ever when she's finished. His reply was well it still wont be good enough for her, you need to stop.

Several reasons why I want to continue for as long as I can, one of them is because DD will not take any milk (formula or expressed) from a bottle or beaker, she can drink upto 3 ounces of water from a beaker but as soon as I pour some milk in there, she wont have any, no matter how hungry she is.

Had an appointment this morning with the midwife to get results back for blood tests (all OK thankfully) and she said very firmly to stop right away from toight, apparently the milk isnt good enough for DD, because it contains pregnancy hormones. I asked if there has been research done to prove that breastfeeding is harmful and she replied 'yes I think so'.

I've done my own research and as far as I can see, its perfectly safe unless there is a history of miscarriage (which thankfully I dont). I know it will get uncomfortable as my pregnancy progresses but ofcourse if its get too much, I wont put any pressure on myself to continue.

So where do they get information from? Is there any research to prove that breastfeeding when pregnant isnt safe?

Just need a bit of reassurance really. I know I will get asked about it the next time I see my midwife.

Oh and just to add, even the dentist said I shouldn't be breastfeeding her, I should have stopped when she was 6 months old, its no good for her teeth (even though she only got her first too tooth at 10 months). Well she's only feeding three times a day for no more than 5 minutes at a time, I doubt thats going to have any last damage on her teeth. Seriosly, I thought health professionals are supposed to be encouraging breastfeeding?

Yes MissM no one ever told that it was BFing (apart from MIL!) - I think it was more likely that is was because I was eating my own body weight in chocolate at the time and that can cause problems (similar to too much caffeine). She could've had colic, it really could've been anything. I took the advice I was given (fed her in an upright position in case it was let-down, stopped eating chocolate, fed her from one breast only). I also started a baby-massage course and started her on solids all around the same time and it stopped - so it could've been anyone of those - or a combination.

obviously you will never know exactly what other sugary drinks and foods etc a child with decay will be eating. there are always many factors involved. people do not tell the whole truth when asked for diet sheets etc. however i and many of my colleagues have definitely noticed that breastmilk does have some part to play. and the risk of fluorosis from regular 2-3 times a day brushing is negligible. so my advice would still be to keep on brushing! and if you do believe breastmilk isnt cariogenic then theoretically you wouldnt be brushing softened enamel would you?

Obviously you are not very well-informed yummytummy, no dentist I have ever worked with has ever made even a remote suggestion of a link between breastmilk and caries. How can you place the blame on breastmilk without knowing the full background as you have said not many parents are completely honest about their child's diet and dental hygiene routine.

I wasn't talking about flourosis, I was talking about the toxcity of too much flouride consumption. You are suggesting putting flouride onto a child's teeth after each feed, but a lot of breastfed babies have a lot more than 2-3 feeds a day. My DS who is 22mths old still has 2-3 feeds a day so if you are talking about a 4-6 month old who potentially has a few teeth coming through then they will be feeding a lot more than 2-3 times a day so the risk of flouride poisoning is high. It is irresponsible to suggest this.

Do you think breastmilk is carcinogenic? I certainly don't. Good God. Where on earth in my post does it suggest I do? I said that brushing after someting sugary is not recommended, as it softens the enamel. Yes breastmilk does contain some sugars, so does cows milk so it does have an effect to some extent but not the detriment of the incisors and molars like you suggest.

Go easy Breastmilk, Yummytummy is a dentist, and she's not disagreeing with the OP, just offering her some sound advice based on her professional POV.

I was still bf two-and-a-half-year-old DS when I had my booking-in appointment with DD, and all my midwife said was "That's great!".

(TheBreastmilksOnMe -- yummytummy said cariogenic, not carcinogenic)

MissM- What she has said has annoyed me that is all, her advice is misleading and unsound. I don't see how she can point the blame at breastmilk as the main cause in young babies and children to have such bad dental decay that they need surgical extractions. If she is spouting this 'advice' to breastfeeding mothers it is yet another ill-informed health professional doing damage to the success of long-term breastfeeding. This is my gripe. She may well be a dentist but that does not make her an expert on breastfeeding, as the OP has already demonstrated with the 'advice' given to her by her GP, midwife and dentist.

Professor- excuse me I misread the word.

Well to be fair she did say that it could be down to a number of things, and was just explaining why a dentist might have advised against BF to the OP. I think her posts were completely reasonable and you were being a bit harsh!

Well MissM to be fair to Breastmilk, yummymummy did also say that the front teeth of a breastfed child would be particularly at risk due to the fact that they are being washed with bm as the child sucks - which as anyone who has bfed a child knows, is not true. Very little breastmilk washes over the teeth as it enters the mouth behind the teeth, and you don't really get passive pooling (like you do with a bottle) because breastmilk won't come unless the child is actively sucking and swallowing.

So although I am very happy to accept that BM may indeed have cariogenic properties, particularly in combination with other sugary foods, I think Breastmilk is only reasonable to correct mistaken assertions.

I doubt the human race would have survived for millions of years if babies initial source of food also destroyed their teeth.

Doncha just love mumsnet.We cite research, a dentist puts in her POV and that + the midwife's input are all rubbished by a group of randomers think they know better than professionals with tears of training and experience cos they've read something on Kellysmom.

I have got a book downstairs with pages and pages of research references showing that breastfeeding in pregnancy is NOT normally a problem that I could copy out, but I'm not going to because, tbh, I have better things to do with my evening.

And my midwife's input was the exact opposite of the OP's midwife's, so somewhere along the line something is going wrong with some medical professionals' years of training and experience.

And I have seen dentists on MN before when this subject has come up say what tyv has said above -- that while BM is cariogenic, when delivered directly from the breast (rather than expressed from a bottle) it generally does not cause problems because the position of the nipple when properly latched on delivers milk to the back of the mouth and it doesn't pool around the front teeth (they have always added that if possible you should brush teeth after breastfeeding, though).

When medical professionals disagree I think "randomers" are probably entitled to do their own reading around a subject. Or we could just toss a coin to decide which medical professional to listen to, I suppose...

Firstly, sounds like your GP thinks all breastfed babies nurse like newborns! I?m assuming (given that you nurse three times a day ? jealous by the way!) that your baby is eating solids too, so it?s not like you?re ?not going to have enough? and baby will starve...

My youngest didn?t really take any fluids until well past one, even now at 18 months it?s not daily, so I was glad to be breastfeeding.

?Yes I think so???? ROFL that?s one for ?My OB Said What?!?? She is totally wrong, there are no studies proving it?s harmful, in fact it?s the other way around. I had had a miscarriage and two premature births (20 and 31) and only got positive feedback from staff (even P&A advice which I didn?t want to tell them doesn?t really apply at 2!) the only time you need to stop breastfeeding is if you are on ?pelvic rest? i.e. you?ve been told not to breastfeed.

Human teeth are set up for breastfeeding until 7 years old, sounds like your dentist is giving you personal icky feelings over professional advice!

I am now tandeming at 4 years and 19 months and have learnt a very important lesson, sometimes you need to lie to HCPs, some things they don?t need to know and are better off not knowing. I always talk about the eldest?s breastfeeding in past tense and if they ask when I stopped I say ?I didn?t? but that?s it. My stepchildren have siblings similar ages to my two and whilst my children were cuddling up together at the breast, OH?s XW was trying to explain to her eldest why the baby was having his milk.

Sapphire, we weren?t trying but previously we had caught very easily, we went with natural spacing and caught just before 2 years.

Otchayaniye are all the breastfed toddlers living in your area??? There?s not that many toddlers still breastfed so I find it hard to believe she?s even seen that many, let alone many with decay! I think it sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing for her, try not to stress.

Yummutummy, how do you breastfeed??? My nipple actually goes into my children?s mouths! It should actually be in their throat and nowhere near the teeth. What area are you? Just so I can be sure to not visit you

Layton, did you see this post?

"logrrl Mon 26-Jul-10 20:44:53
all a load of shit, but others have pointed that out
For some context (I am a fellow HCP and loosely involved in the infant feeding strategy locally)
-midwifes are NOT BF experts, contrary to what you might expect. Some are but certainly not all. Depends on their personal interest/position/responsibilities. Many midwifes, just like many other women, don't BF themselves, so don't even have personal experience.
-GP's may or may not have had BF training since qualifying. During their training that "training" might have been one day, at most one week.
Good luck with your pregnancy."

If midwives and GPs aren't getting much training (BTW, I did more than that as a PCT peer supporter) what makes you think a dentist gets more???

Sorry that was at KatieStar

Katie- So are you saying that professionals know everything there is to know about a subject and us mere mortals know diddly squat? Then you are naive. Nobody can profess to know everything there is to know about a subject. It's impossible and those that do are arrogant and deluded just as this group of 'randomers' as you so nicely put it can be very knowledgeable about subjects close to out hearts. How do you know that the 'randomers' on here don't have more in-depth knowledge on certain matters, maybe more up-to-date than the so called professionals? There are many, many well-informed 'unprofessional' people on mumsnet. Kellymom is a very accurate, up-to-date and informed website that has helped millions of women and health professionals alike with accurate and well-documented studies on everything to do with breastfeeding. Try it sometime instead of sounding so dismissive of it.

TheBreastmilksOnMe, none professional, please!

Katie, as an example, I have an autoimmune disease, quite common actually and MN have a campaign related to it, but most GPs have never heard of it or think "it's a pregnancy condition" (hmm... say that to the old men disabled from it) and rather than admit their ignorance on the condition they try to make dangerous suggestions. Should I think that they're the professional and know what they're talking about or do I, a mere random, correct them on it?

"We cite research, a dentist puts in her POV and that + the midwife's input are all rubbished by a group of randomers think they know better than professionals with tears of training and experience cos they've read something on Kellysmom"

Most health professionals have had very, very little training or education in breastfeeding - even those HP's whose job it is to work with mothers and babies.

It's not difficult for a mother to know more, particularly if she has breastfed her own child. And thank fuck so many women are well informed, or our continuing breastfeeding rates in the UK would be even more of a disaster than they currently are.

Any sugar causes decay and since breast milk contains lactose it will too. Feeding on demand be it breast, squash, juice or fruit will cause decay eventually. Processed sugars are the most easily used sugars by oral bacteria but they can use glucose, fructose and lactose as well. Brushing teeth and exposing them to fluoride helps to protect the teeth by reducing the bacteria present and hardening the outer enamel. Ideally brushing before a meal/ drink is better than after for this reason. It would be pretty difficult to prove caries from breast feeding as the main cause as any parent asked about their child's diet will always say they never have any sugar and any that they have is GPs, exH
Moderation as with all things is the key.

Breast milk and cavaties
"Shamefully, many pediatric (child) dentists believe that frequent breast feeding, on cue, as nature intended is the cause of childhood cavities.

This is not true, and it does not make sense since nature did not design it ideal food source for infants, breast milk, to be the cause of disease. "

Firstly, the proportion of toddlers still being bf in the UK into toddlerhood is miniscule.
Secondly, the proportion of those children whose parents are likely to make their bf known to their dentist is pretty small, I'd imagine.

So your average dentist probably hardly ever knowingly comes across a bf toddler. Hardly a strong sample size to form sweeping statements and conclusions.

Thirdly, if bf into childhood, and night-time bf has a strong correlation with caries, then we will obviously see evidence of that correlation in societies where 'extended' bf is the norm, and also in historical human remains where it would have been normal to bf for years, (wihout the benefit of Colgate etc)

Now, who wants to take a stab at what the evidence actually points to?...

yummytummy, your comment about the front teeth indicates you already hold some very inaccurate ideas about breastfeeding. Is it possible you are inaccurate in assuming bm is the cause of the caries you are seeing?

OP, I'd be really tempted to ask your health professionals to show you their research.

Mind you, I tried that with a GP who wasn't my usual antenatal provider but was filling in - and far more interventionist than mine - and got a lot of "well most of my training comes from medical journals with terminology you wouldn't be equipped to understand". But still, my feeling is that if health professionals complain about us mere mortals doing internet research and relying on anecdata, the onus is on them to show us some "proper" evidence.

How patronising! I'd have said "bring it on!" I argued with my GP about putting EBM in my baby's eye. We were away for the night, her eye was sticky and she was distressed because she couldn't open it. So I hand expressed onto a spoon and dropped it in. GP was not impressed! When I started telling her about the anti-bac properties she told me it had to be drunk and she couldn't see how that (drinking it) could possibly help her eye. She even told me I'd make it worse. If she'd been one of our regulars I'd have printed off some light reading for her!

VLC, exactly what I was trying to say!

Maybe when there is a problem people are bigging up their breastfeeding and hiding sugar drinks in an attempt to cover up their own "mistakes"? But I genuinely can't believe that of the minute amount of breastfed toddlers a significant enough amount are having teeth pulled/ filled to even notice them come through let alone draw conclusions.

here is something for dentists to think about

"Anthropology data
? Anatomically modern humans - 100,000 years
? Very modern humans - 30,000 years
? Caries developed - 8,000 - 10,000 years ago
? This means that breastfed babies had no
decay for 92,000 years"

"Anthropologist?s position:
? If breastmilk caused decay - evolution
would have selected against it.
? It would be evolutionary suicide for
breastmilk to cause decay."

Dr Brian Palmer's website touches on lots of other things concerning dentistry and early feeding methods including some slides which some parents may find distressing.

yummymummy - have you breastfed yourself? Because normally, I must admit, I wouldn't dream of arguing the toss with a professional in their field of expertise, but your assertion that breastmilk "washes over the front teeth" just isn't and can't possibly be the case.

I think that other posters should note the difference between "cariogenic" and "carcinogenic"!

the other presentations by Dr Palmer along with reading the commentaries on the slides which he recommends are printed out for reading while viewing are very educational (for me anyway).

The presentation of cadaver babies looking at the inner ear and and palate in cross section can be distressing so please be aware for those of a more sensitive disposition at the moment.