another old chestnut - how friends without children expect us to behave

[kickassangel]

ok, we moved less than 2 years ago, so these friends are relatively new.

but i am starting to get v fed up - actually pissed off to the point of telling them to f* off.

we have friends who we both get on well with, and we like doing things together, but it seems to be increasingly obvious that they want us to 'ditch' dd whenever their plans aren't child friendly.

they're v nice to dd, and chat away with her etc if we do things where she's involved, BUT when they want an 'adult' time, e.g. going to a festival, drinking eve type things, their stock reply is 'get a babysitter' followed by them trying to 'persuade' me (in a charming, but totally unwilling to change their minds way, which feels more like bullying) to fit in with their plans.

there have been a few times when dh has gone out with the husband, and the wife & i made plans, but if i can't/won't get a babysitter, or i don't want to drink & drive (which they think is fine, we have 'discussed' this) then the wife drops out, usually at the last minute. i can only assume that she just doesn't want to have to adapt her behaviour around dd.

so this weekend, we're all going to see a band at a local festival. they want to set off about 3 to get there in time to sit around & drink. they will also smoke dope. they don't get that i want to turn up later, and not pay for hours of babysitting, we are likely to get home well after midnight. the entire conversation is about why/how i should arrange a babysitter for the whole afternoon.

my point is this
a) they just don't 'get' that i can't drop dd when it suits their arrangements, in fact i may not wish to do that, and
b) surely, friends should discuss how to reach a compromise in these situations, not try to browbeat people into joining in with them.

tbh, i would rather drive separately anyway, they think it's fine to have 'a few drinks' (e.g. a bottle of wine or more) then drive home, they also believe that smoking dope doesn't affect their driving skills. personally, i'd rather be the one to stay sober, specially as dd will get me up at 7 the next morning.

so, AIBU to think that these people are 'fair weather' friends, not the kind you can rely on?

I don't think it's to do with them being child free it's to do with them being irresponsible.

the majority of my close friends are childless, none of them drink and drive nor have they ever and we all grew out of smoking weed in our early 20s. I don't know anyone who skins up in company anymore, people have moved on. I have a real bugbear with drinking and driving at any age, I've never done it. I would struggle to stay friends with someone who thought it was ok tbh and tried to push me into it. If I'm driving I won't even have one.

My childless friends quite often come over with a bottle of wine when dh goes out and vice versa as they know it's easier to socialise like this.

They sound annoying!

"i don't think its delibrate just a bit thoughtless, like we all were!!"

See I don't like this idea either that it's childless people who are thoughtless or automatically being the irresponsible ones.
The bottom line is that kids are only the most important factor to parents, and others not wanting to be around them in certain situations isn't automatically thoughtless or somehow less valid, it's just a preference.
It's not like childless people would get a lot of support by claiming that a couple with children organising a BBQ were being thoughtless by having the kids around that day because it would interfere with the fact that they want to get pissed and wouldn't feel comfortable doing it around kids. So in the same way I don't think that parents arguing having an adult BBQ with lots of booze is thoughtless on the part of a childless couple because "what do they expect me to do with my children for the day" etc.
Some of the threads on child free weddings show how equally thoughtless of childless peoples priorities other parents can be at times.

i get your point quimby, and i actually like that they ask us to these things, don't just exclude us cos we have dd. BUT it seems they only want us around for those things, and there is no compromise e.g. july 4th, meet up in a park, drink some wine, watch some fireworks. she bailed, i think because i had to drive so would not be drinking with her - i offered her a lift so that she could drink without thinking about getting home.

AND the conversations keep ending up with them trying to make me accept that it's ok to have 3 or 4 big glasses of wine, then drive home, or that dope is 'scientifically proven' not to affect motor-neuron, so it's ok to smoke round a friend's house, then drive home etc etc.

i just think that real friends would let me stick to my boring, sensible views, without trying to lecture me. i do NOT attempt to lecture them, just if i say, no thanks to another round, cos i'm driving, they start telling me it's ok to drink & drive.

I would wait until they were about to leave the pub having drunk too much, then nip outside, dial 999 and give the cops their location and car registration number. Seriously. I understand that if you're a big person then you can maybe have a little more than the guideline amount of alcohol and be fine, but NEVER a bottle of wine + (a 'large' glass of wine is 250ml = a third of a bottle) and then drive - no way! I don't think I could have potential deaths on my conscious if I knew people who were drink driving on a regular basis.

kickass why don't you just tell them, honestly nd frqankly, that you will not be drinking and driving, you do have a DD, and your opinions may be differet to theirs and they need to respect that.

Sometimes people just need to hear the brutal honest truth before they lay off other people for different opinions.

Maybe you should only have friends who have their own children.

I have two children age 9 and 14 and I love them to bits, being their mother is the greatest blessing ever, however I am still a person and I do enjoy some adult time without the children now and then and I always have enjoyed a night out with friends for a meal or a film or girls night out, Also DH has always had his football or darts, yes we are parents but we are still people and enjoy some time without children now and then.
Its nice sometimes.
Also while we think our children are the best thing since sliced bread, we do not expect the rest of the world to do the same.

Isn't it a compliment that she fights so hard to spend her free time with you, without you having to think about being in charge of DD?!

I know it not necessarily the view you take, OP, but it's a possible view!!!

i have told them this stuff. it just seems they won't drop it. nearly every week we end up meeting in the pub after work, dh has weekly golf lessons with the wife & she ALWAYS wants to go for a drink after.
their lifestyle is fine for them - they just have a drink with everything, one after work, after golf, at a bbq etc. BUT they won't get that i don't and that they are 'pushing it' with their own limits.

when they have 3 or 4 glasses, it will be over an hour or longer, and with food. they're not drunk, but i'm sure they're over the limit. however, they know a way to 'beat the system' apparently, if you blow too hard into the bag (and you only get breath tested if you fail the chat at the roadside & the co-ordination test) it fails, then the case gets thrown out of court. US cops don't take you to the station to do a urine test. i just feel like i'm arguing with deluded teenagers - they have a few facts off the internet about how to make it 'safe' so they are happy to carry on.

i would happily leave them in their delusional world, but there is no way to stop contact (lesser contact yes but not stop), AND they just don't want to compromise. they suggest things, i say, that sounds great, i'd be free about x o'clock, or could bring dd, they then back out or try to make me change plans to fit in with them.

dh agrees with me, and offers compromises. on the recent discussion (there have been a few) about drink driving, he ordered a diet coke

runaway - i totally agree with you, and we do get a babysitter to go out, or have our own nights out etc, about 2 or 3 times a week. we also like to go out with dd, so if we're meeting in the pub at 6, she comes along & has dinner there while we have a couple of drinks. these things aren't always pre-arranged, they're spur of the moment, so i can't just get a babysitter. i also can't afford a babysitter more than once a week.

it is nice that they want to spend time with us, and i do appreciate that, we genuinely get on well apart from this, but it's becoming a bigger issue.

i just want them to shut up & let me live how i want, instead of feeling pressured into being a teenager again.

i just don't want to get somewhere at 4 pm (the band is playing around 10 pm) to drink for 8 hours, smoke, then drive home, getting in around 2, then have to be up again at 7 am.and i don't think i should have to defend that. i'm happy for them to go ahead, and us join them later, but that isn't what they want, so i end up being the 'boring one'.

tsc, no, i don't expect them to deal with my kids. here, everyone takes kids to a pub, even quite posh adult venues will have kids in up til late at night - i wouldn't do that. we just go along to informal, after works drinks. there is no other way for me to go when they just ring up & say let's meet up - and that is fine. i also wouldn't have dd around at the kind of thing where there will be lots of smoking & drinking, i would get a babysitter for that. however, even these quick 'swift drinks' after work (only an hour or so, people come & go, other kids around) will result in them having at least 2 drinks, prob 3, sometimes 4. then, if dh & I don't drink, we get the 'oh, it's all right, everyone knows the law is too strict' spiel. i'm not telling them when to stop, so why are they telling me?

BUT there have also been times, when we have arranged something. i haven't been able to get a babysitter, or it's a family occasion (eg 4th july) so dd will be there - i have made that quite clear, they know in advance. then, when they realise that dh & I won't both be drinking copious amounts, we get ditched. and then, later, it becomes apparent that the illness/tiredness etc wasn't real.

i have even offered to be the driver, pick them up, drop them home, so that they can drink unreservedly. that also gets turned down, they want to turn up, drink 3, maybe 4 large glasses of wine, then drive home. fri night the guy came round our house for a few drinks (5 or 6 beers) and a smoke, then drove home. i would happily have driven him home, so he could collect his car next day, but he doesn't want that either, then i get the lecture about how he knows he's safe to drive, it isn't far etc.

btw, the dance example, the wife does dance as a hobby, and had no intention of missing her dance class for a week, so why should dd? i would do it sometimes, if sometimes they were prepared to compromise, but they just never see that dd's things count as much as their own, iyswim. it is ALWAYS dd who should go to a babysitter/miss class etc. i'm prepared to take turns with compromise, but over the last month, there have been quite a few times when it's apparent that they think we should either be totally in line with their plans, or they just ditch us. even without kids involved, i just don't think that's how friendships work.

A few years before we had ds, some close friends of ours mentioned we were among the very few people that had stuck with them once they had kids. They'd lost most of their childless friends as those friends just couldn't adjust to them not being able to socialise in the same manner.

At the time I was quite shocked - had never occurred to me to to object to going round to their house to play with their kids and put them to bed before the grown ups have supper and a few drinks instead of hitting the clubs. We like our friends and wanted to spend time with them, and understood that they couldn't drop everything to party at a moment's notice. And their boys have always been very entertaining!

Now we've got ds and they had a much younger child after a big gap, so it's really nice meeting up as families. And their older boys are becoming teenagers and are lovely lads.

I think the fact that you drink less than your friends do, is holding up a mirror to their drinking habits. And they don't like it.

If I were you, I'd just cut down on the contact a bit and make friends with other people with kids as well.

I wouldn't want to be friends with dopesmokers tbh. That would be a deal breaker for me.

But, aside from that, I don't think they are being thoughtless or unreasonable to not want to spend free time with your daughter. If you don't have kids it is a bit tedious to spend time with other people's, and have your free time curtailed. I don't think that is a selfish view.

OP i would probably cut down time spent with them and make friends with people with kids.

Totally anti the drink driving/drugs thing, but can see where they are coming from with the not wanting children around aspect. its very easy to forget how we all felt pre-kids.

To be honest, if they are annoying you as much as they seem to be by your posts on here, I'd not bother with them any more. Life's too short to have 'friends' who make you cross...

I think that the bottom line is that you get on and enjoy their company. I totally agree on the drink driving thing but much as you want them to stop going on at you to drink and drive (how bonkers an argument is that?!) I think that you have to try not to air your views to them. I have friends who still drink and drive and I made a point of saying that we had opposing views so it wasn't a subject I was prepared to discuss. They know I will get a cab if they have been drinking and drive home - even if it's just me on my own and everyone else is piling in the car... there have been times I've been in the same conversations you describe and I just let them finish their sentence and say "we agreed not to talk about this so I'm not talking about it". Took a few goes (I started to lecture them a bit at first too) but it's officially off the conversation table now.

As a childless person with friends with children I just wanted to offer another possible perspective... I'm super conscious of my friends with children wanting to be treated the same as before and getting upset when they stop getting invited to stuff because of the kids or not being able to socialise spontaneously, or that people without children think they're boring/don't want to know etc etc. If I invite them along to something like a boozy day out or similar and they say they can't because of xyz I offer solutions and try to find a way around it... it's not that I'm trying to force them in to anything, nor does it come from a critical place... it's more about letting them know how much I want to see them and to have fun with them and for them to relax as adults. I love their kids and we do have great fun at family events, but at the same time I sometimes really "miss" my mates who have kids when we don't get "grown up" time. I miss letting our hair down completely and just being mates and being able to talk without interruption. I miss just having a laugh without having to watch what I say. I don't expect it all the time though by any means. Us empty nesters hear so much from parents being fed up of being known as "Jonny's Mum" and who just want to be themselves for a while, so we just see our invitations/behaviour as giving you the opportunity to do just that! The over-enthusiastic (insensitive) suggestions are more about letting you know you're wanted than criticizing your lifestyle or expecting you to put your child "in the cupboard" to suit us. If I was going to see a band at a festival I would probably go to soak up the festival atmosphere as long as possible too... but if my mates who had children couldn't join until later then that would be fine too. You say that you're not really interested in going for that long anyway regardless of child care (I may have got that wrong) so perhaps instead of using your child as an excuse you should just say that you don't want to go until later - they can't argue with that can they?!

Personally, if I was there when a person decided to get behind the wheel after having drunk that much and smoked a joint, I would ring the police without thinking twice about it! What if they knock somebody over!!

I had friends like this - they even doted on my kids, but it wasn't really about whether they had kids or not, it was about how different we were. It's a long long story, but we don't see them at all anymore and I feel so much better about it! It wasn't easy to break contact, but it had to be done and I'm not under pressure to take DD2 into a house where joints are constantly being lit up around her. (that was the last straw, we haven't been back since!).

Hope you find a way around it all, but I would say it is very much worth standing your ground, regardless of what the rest of the town would think. Let DH continue the social bits and pieces, but I wouldn't bother with the rest of it...

ok, so dh spoke to the wife about sat and reached a compromise - he poured a couple of drinks down her first. so sat is sorted. we are going at a time half way between when they wanted and we wanted, and both going in our own cars. dh agrees with me that he's not comfortable being driven home by them (we've both been caught in awkward situations with that one) and put the argument, that if the babysitter calls, they don't want to have to leave early (another prob we had once, dd at home crying, they didn't want to leave early when we only had one car between us).

the next time the whole drink driving thing comes up, i will just tell them not to discuss it - as i said earlier, i've never lectured them, it's always been them on at me. (madness).

otherwise, i don't care how much they drink or smoke, so long as they let me be who i am.

aside from that issue, they are lovely, and it's great to have a couple we both get on with. as there is no avoiding them, we have to get on with them, so i hope the issues die down.

btw, it is her who does most of the drinking (but he drinks quite a bit) and him who does most of the 'lecturing' (telling me to lighten up, have some more, he's glad he's being the rebel here!). HE is a budhist, and has taken a vow of abstinence
dh & I find that part of it quite amusing!

Friend or no friends, I'd be reporting someone who drink and drives to the police.

To be honest I'm a bit at some of the remarks on here. Because the op has a couple of highly irresponsible, immature friends who just happen to be childless she should just seek out friends with children in future??? I'm just thinking how many nice, interesting friends I would have to drop if I took that advice.