Wysoy - so it's not good but now what?

[Stropzilla]

DD2, 11 weeks, has apparantly got an intolerance to cows milk protein (maybe - or colic depending on the doctor I talk to). I've tried Aptimil, Comfort, low lactose formula then got prescribed wysoy. Health visitor not pleased with that, and changed me to nutramigen. DD2 seems to want to starve rather than eat it, and to be fair it is the most disgusting food I've tasted since...ever really. DD2 is miles better on wysoy, so we had to go back to that. The doc that prescribed me wysoy was unimpressed the HV had changed foods, and refused to try anything else and just gave me more wysoy. HV has now referred me to a dietician. WHY am I having to fight my doc to get food my child can tolerate! I'm now reading there's problems with early puberty in girls who have had wysoy but what else can I give her? On top of that DD1 has a cough she has generously shared with DD2 so they're both miserable.

GRR! SOme Drs!! I was told that there were minimal problems for girls from having soya - more or less just an extra day in their period. It's more of a problem for boys, I think. There are other formulas that could be prescribed. Could you see another Dr?

Soya infant formulas are not recommended for babies under 6mths according to the British Dietetic Association Paediatric Group due to the amount of phyto-oestrogens plus many children allergic to cow's milk are also allergic to soya. Many health professionals (including our consultant) don't recommend soya formulas at all and definitely not under 12mths. I know how yucky Nutramigen is but it really is the best way forward. My advice would be stick with it, mixing it with the Wysoy and gradually increasing the ratio of Nutramigen to Wysoy (this was the method we used). We started with just 1 floz of Nutramigen mixed with 6 or 7 floz of DS's previous formula and gradually increased until eventually he was drinking 7 floz of Nutramigen without any problems (we later had to do the whole process again when we changed to Neocate but that's another story!). As your baby is so young, it really shouldn't be that difficult - it's when they're much older that it's really hard/virtually impossible. You might have to endure some rather unpleasant feeds involving lots of screaming but no baby has ever starved themselves to death so eventually he will accept it I'm sure. I would also demand ask GP to refer your DS to an allergy specialist. There are NICE guidelines about this (sorry, haven't got time to do the link but you should be able to Google it). Good luck and let us know how you get on.

According to this NHS advice soy formula contains glucose (as opposed to lactose) which could be a problem for baby's teeth.

Here's the link to the statement by BDA Paediatric Group about not giving soya formula to babies under 6 mths: www.bda.uk.com/publications/PaediatricGroupGuidelineSoyInfantFormulas.pdf and here's the link to the NICE guidelines: publications.nice.org.uk/food-allergy-in-children-and-young-people-cg116/guidance

Stropzilla, just wanted to say that I managed to wean DD onto Nutramigen at 8 months, but swapping an ounce of it everyday with the dairy formula she was on. It about a week to get her onto it.

The advice we were given was that it really isn't a pleasant smell and that I shouldn't make a face when feeding DD as kids can pick up on this.

Hopefully It will work and your DD will take it but it'll just be a slow transition.

My DD is now 4.5 and is still prescribed nutramigen. I hate the stuff but she's growing well on ot and is on the 91st centile for her height and 75th for her weight, so it is good stuff, I think.

Good Luck.

PS - It's amazing that you have such a good health visitor. The ones we had were just erm... really lovely ladies but not very good really.

What's up with wysoy?
DS has been having it for 10 years now, since he was about 6mo (not as a main milk, mixed in weetabix or custard).

inmysparetime

I'm sorry if I worried you, I was in a hurry and didn't express myself very carefully - must do so in future!

It's to do with phytoestrogens (naturally occurring plant oestrogen) in the soya. Obviously oestrogen isn't really a boy thing. The worry is that too much soya might affect male fertility. The advice of the BDA is not to not use soya, but not to overuse it. So use it as part of a healthy balanced diet basically. From what you have said, you seem to be using it in exactly the right way, so you should be fine.

There is more of a worry about using it before the age of six months, when it's used as a sole source of nutrition. The problem with using it before 6 months is spelt out in the guidance from the BDA for which freefrommum provided a link.

BTW Vegans & Vegetarians will tell you it's a load of rubbish and that soya is fine.

I read the link, although my worries were not all that assuaged by the "need to do some long term studies", I wonder if I should offer DS as a long term study.
He is very small for his age, and less physically developed than his peers. I had previously put that down to his good diet, and lack of calorie intake, ah well, I need a bit of something to worry about, he's not had a reaction for a while...
I'm not really that worried, it's just that he's been on it for a really long time and I am a little concerned that oestrogens could build up in his system somehow.

How long did you try the protien changed cows milk formula? it takes 6 weeks for gut to heal enough to see a difference. Thats a LOT of different formulas and yr baby is only 11 weeks old.

I would go for a fully changed protein cows milk formula and use that for 6 weeks and then change if you need to.

what sort of intolerence symptoms are you seeing?

Sorry To hop in here, just wondering about signs and symptoms of milk intolerance and lactose intolerance, I have googled but finding it a bit overwhelming. My dd3 has awful silent reflux, her older sister had it but with vomit and grew out if it aged two. The med that the doc has given dd3 works to a point but she has always had two sets of symptoms since birth, the reflux I recognise and am certain of this but a while after every feed she is digesting the milk and in obvious agony,She also develops an angry scratchy looking rash on her face and chest and her tummy gurgles beyond belief, poo is like shaving foam! it is terrible to see. The doc thought she may be intolerant to milk so he wants to try a weekend on soy- hence my post here due to all the bad press I am quite worried. I am also bfing and it's gone so well, I did have an overactive let down problem but that has been sorted for weeks now, I block feed and it's been fine,dd3 is 6 weeks old. I contemplated the elimination diet but I can't do it, I don't eat hardly any dairy anyway and supplement with calcium. Just not sure what to do. I suspected a lactose intolerance not milk so tried coilief the enzyme drops, they seemed to help but stopped them whilst doc upped her reflux med. Her tummy was worse without them,so started again and sure enough she is pooing better but to be honest the drops have a slight laxative effect anyway so I don't have a clue if it is simply this! She still is in obvious discomfort and the rash reappears too.Any advice would be so welcome. I don't want to stop bfing really but I can't commit to the strict diet, I eat a healthy diet and watch out for obvious triggers with bfing and the effect on my baby. If a move to formula is to be then I want to use something safe. Many thanks! X

Aptamil Pepti is a hydrolyzed formula which many milk-allergic babies can tolerate, including my DS who is touch-allergic to milk and has had an anaphylactic reaction to it. The reason I mention is that it (apparently) tastes very much like normal formula so it could be considered as an alternative to Nutramigen? Having said that, I've heard that babies under 6 months don't really care about the taste anyway because their palates have still not developed sensitive taste buds.
shezzle: the possible intolerance issue may be misleading. From my (quite extensive albeit amateur) research since DS developed his allergies, I've gathered that lactose intolerance is very rare in babies (lactose being the main sugar in breastmilk), whereas cow's milk allergies are relatively common in western countries. The combination of rash plus reflux may indicate a possible allergy. It might be worth your while checking the NICE guidelines on diagnosing food allergies in children.
But there may be other causes, especially if there is no history of allergy in your family, which would make the chances of your DD having an allergy quite slim. The rash could also be a sign of a yeast infection, perhaps? That might also explain the digestive problems. Did you take any antibiotics while bf'ing? I hope this doesn't sound too preachy or boring. Having gone through hell with my DS for the first 6 months of his life due to yeast infection + allergy I feel I want to lecture everybody about it! Meant to ask: which anti-reflux meds is your DD on?

Garliclover- thank you so much for posting, I really am in the dark as far as allergies go so please preach away!! Sorry for your poor son and you having gone through such an awful time, am so afraid of making dd3 even more ill that as of today I have gone dairy free to keep bfing for now so I can at least see if this helps her,i was worried about being able to manage this initially but am doing it. The allergy website is great have had a good read of that today, thanks. Some symptoms definitely flag up but we do not have allergies as such in our family which is a good point. And yes I did have a large dose of antibiotics after dd3's birth due to big haemorrhage and I did breastfeed too. I had to take them for a while after. I have no idea about yeast infections either. dd2 had terrible reflux with vomiting and she was better by 16 months after being on low dose of ranitidine. Dd3 is on the maximum dose for her weight but am not seeing the same improvement as my other daughter. Dd3 has silent reflux, she is sick but not in the same way as dd2 and is sick mainly at night, she just can't lie down without being in pain. She has all the classic reflux symptoms and some others too. How did you find out in the end about yeast infection?

inmysparetime - don't worry about Wysoy. All formula has it's pros and cons. The report from the link are inconclusive and I quote ?The Working Group considered that the findings from these studies do not provide definitive evidence that phytoestrogens present in soy‐based infant formulae can adversely affect the health of infants." They also say that if you are a non breastfeeding vegan then Wysoy is the appropriate choice. So... are they saying it's ok to damage a vegans' baby, or that is it safe for a vegans' baby (and therefore surely safe for all people's babies??). Btw, my DS has dairy but I also fed him Wysoy as he was weaned because I didn't want him to be reliant just on cows milk, which is overloaded with other types of hormones! Also soy based formula has been used since the 1940's in the UK and US. Call me a cynic, but maybe the huge uptake in soya consumption in the last 10 years is starting to worry the dairy industry? Stropzilla, if you want Wysoy just cut out the HV and DR and buy it from Asda.

Don't just buy it from Asda for the sole nutrition of an under 6 month old!

The caution is well founded - soya 'milk' isn't even milk - it's bean juice. Bean juice to support the growth of a baby's brain, bones and whole organs doesn't make sense . As part of a weaning diet, it's less of a concern

Baby mammals need milk - ideally from their own mother. I'm always surprised when Paeds and Dietiticians seem to suggest Nutramigen or Neocate instead of bm.

Shezzle, your milk is the best thing for your baby. If it's colic -hopefully it will pass fairly soon and you may find your diet will make little difference in the coming weeks

sometimes babies with severe allergies do not thrive on breastmilk. it doesnt happen often, but sometimes it does. esp if dealing with multiple food allergies.
At times this can put a mother on a extremely wide ranging avoidance list for food, with no real confirmation that she is avoiding the correct food.

this is common practice , and mothers do need to use their common sense when it comes to feeding their own body while breastfeeding. Some mothers end up quite underweight and very poorly, with little impact on babies with skin or allergy improvement etc.

sometimes, a baby cant digest any milk, mothers or current formulas and has their own one made for them in hosptial.

sometimes mothers of allergic kids need to work and expressing with the best will in the world doesnt go well, so some substitute milk must be found.

neocate and alimentum (sp? cant remember) is cows milk and is made in such a way that the protein chains are totally changed,and is safe form of articficial feeding for a food allergic infant.

The idea of breast being best for all does not fit in the allergic world, its along side the wildly banned about phrase words such as 'natural' and 'organic' both of which can still mean trouble for the allergic child.