What's wrong with DD's nursery?? AAARRRGGGHHHH!! Or Is it me, AIBU?

[mumat39]

Before I start I should explain that I'm feeling a mixture of emotions but mostly feeling really hacked off and fed up with DD's nursery. A bit of history : DD 4.5 is allergic to the wheat, eggs, Tree Nuts, Peanuts and other legumes (lentils, mung beans, chick peas, kidney beans, soya), Sesame, Rapeseed Oil, Oats as well as cats and pollen. I also suspect other foods. I am a very careful parent, like most mums of allergic kids and always make sure things are mentioned and that I double check everything.

Here goes...

They have baking on a Thursday and I asked yesterday what they would be making and did I need to provide anything. The converstaion moved onto 'well we could do with a couple of bags of flour for playdough'. The lady who mentioned that seemed to say that she has been buying it the last couple of time. I used to provide it (Doves Rice Flour) until the main nursery teacher told me that they could get it. I'm happy to provide stuff as I often feel guilty that I am 'putting on' the nursery by DD going there. I'm not very confident and always feel like that about this nursery. Anyway, the conversation went onto what they were making and it was gingerbread men. I asked what the recipe was and was told flour, butter, sugar and ginger. Feeling happy I asked if DD could join in and 'have a go' at making some. They said they would do this and she would be in the first group and they would use the WF/GF flour. All good.

When I went to collect DD this afternoon, she came out carrying her ginger bread man. As soon as I noticed it and said hello, DD said 'it has egg in it'. I suddenly felt like the rug had been pulled from under me. I immediately took the little bad and noticed that there were grease spots on the side so asked DD if she would go in and wash her hands again. I asked the teacher and she said yes it does have egg (same lady as I'd spoken to the day before). My immediate thoughts were ' was she ok handling it'. They said she had rolled it out and had been fine so presumably the parent helper had made the dough. DD didn't go in to wash her hands but the teacher said that because I worry, that they had made sure DD washed her hands afterwards. Wouldn't they ask all the children to wash their hands after handling dough that contained raw egg. Not sure why they felt they had to make that point. Anyway, I was surprised but relieved that DD was ok and had been ok. As we left I noticed that she had a red weal on one cheek, where she'd touched her face after giving me the biscuit bag.

When I see a weal, I have no idea if it's just a lone thing or if it's the start of something else. I was actually going to let DD try some of the biscuit she'd made so am SO SO pleased she mentioned it as the staff hadn't.

WHen I saw that I just felt so shaky and upset and really really angry. I HATE confrontation but went back to the nursery and spoke to the main teacher and I couldn't believe her attitude.

I said that DD isn't allowed to handle egg and that it is written on the Care Plan which was finalised in the first few weeks she was there. The teacher said 'well she has to try it at some point'. I was kinda dumbstruck and couldn't believe she said that. I should have replied ' well when it's deemed to be safe she will try some in a food challenge under medical supervision'. I mentioned that when we discussed it the day before, egg hadnt been mentioned. She said 'oh hadn't it?'. She apologised but only after I pointed out that it was in the care plan. She said she'd make sure it didn't happen again but I don't believe her. I get the feeling that once the care plan was pinned up on the wall it hasn't been looked at. I then asked if it would be ok for DD to go and wash her hands and again they said 'well she did wash them' so I said, 'she's been holding the bag and the grease has come through'. The teacher immediately said 'well that was her own butter so that wouldn't be a problem' so I said 'well the fact that it's on the bag and the biscuit has egg in it then I think she should wash her hands'. I get the feeling that there is alot of eye rolling that goes on. The number of times this lady has said to me 'well she's got to try it sometime'. If anyone says that again to me I think i'll scream. Oh and she also said ' DD said that she never eats
whatever she brings home anyway' as if it's okay to handle a food that she's allergic to. I then had to remind her that DD hasn't ever bought anything home as when she first started nursery their oven didn't work so they hadn't done any baking.

I also said to this teacher that the care plan is there for a reason and if with a class of 26 kids it's difficult to make sure DD is ok, then I could take her out of the nursery. She replied saying 'don't make this into a bigger issue than it is'. When we left I, as usual, apologised for being a pain, and she said 'no you must talk to us' but all the while I talk to them I get a feeling that they really would rather I just go away.

Anyway, we came home, and I noticed that DD had a few more little nettle rash type lone spots on her face and hands and shoulder. So I gave her a bath and even though it was only 3.40 and made her wait for something to eat. She was very upset and I ended up bursting into tears at which DD nearly cried again.

I have never felt that the staff at the nursery believe me and that they think i'm an OTT mum. I really hate the way they make me feel. I the past when they've had things that DD can't do, they explained this to her by saying 'well your mummy doesn't want you to do that' rather than, unfortunately because you're allergic to this it might make you feel poorly. AAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!! When DD first started I made sure that they understood the allergies she has and for the last term, everything's been in place so I haven't said or asked for anything. I'm like one of the other mums and drop her off at the door and pick her up at the door.

When I saw the next few weals after we got home, I was seriously thinking I'll complain but I'm not sending her back. I spoke to DP this evening and he just says that I need to remind them again about things. He always talks about what I should do not what we should do but that's a whole other thread.

Anyway, am I being unreasonable about this? I don't feel I can trust them really. Thank goodness DD mentioned there were eggs in the biscuits. The other thing that I've been concerned about for a long while, ever since she started there really, is that they always seem to have different people working in the nursery and I don't know how good they are at making sure they know that DD has allergies. DD takes her own water bottle in which was agreed on day 1, and she has been told by one of the staff that 'this isn't a nursery for opening bottles' one day when I'd tightened the lid a bit too much. Since then DD doesn't drink water there at all.

Today, there were 2 parent helpers and 1 was doing baking. I know the mum and I know she wouldn't have used egg in the mix if she had been told that DD was allergic. But I don't think there is any handover of information at all and with food allergies and handling foods you'd think that would happen. I think the care plan is on the wall gathering dust and isn't used at all.

I am all over the place with this post,sorry. The care plan explicitly says to discuss baking with me and also to NOT let DD handle the foods she's allergic to. What's the point of a care plan??

I feel so so angry and sad and have that same feeling again that it's me vs the world on this.

very very very very :(

I work with children in a private day nursery and am shocked at the attitide of the nursery. The staff need training in how to deal with children with allergies.
In our nursery there are pictures of the children with allergies in all therooms with a description of the allergy so that new people know immediately of the allergies.
There should also be written risk assesments for activities, especially cooking. There should be a risk assessment especially for your daughter,- that's the SENCO's job.
Their attitude is shocking, especially with the water bottle- that alone would be enough to send me running in the opposite direction. I can't believe thet the senco suggested that your daughter doesn't do baking. I am a senco, and that attitude just stinks, it's not inclusive at all.

I understand that the nursery cannot 100% guarantee her safety but the policies and proceedures are in place to minimise the risk. By not even following very basic proceedures, they are putting your child at risk. Complain, and very loudly. To the head, to the governers, to the LEA and to Ofsted.

The whole Inclusion this is really confusing for me. They say they are inclusive and want all children to take part in the curriculum, but when it comes to DD they seem to not be.

Eragon, thanks for your reply. Who are the people I should be complaining to? I've spoken to the Dep. Head who is also the Senco? I am worried about writing a letter as I'm still so angry and want what I write to be clear and unemotional.

Insancerre, Thank you for replying too. It's good to hear from another Senco.

If I complain, do I still pull DD out of there? Or do I complain and send her back. I spoke to my brother in law last night and he said that as it's happened they'll be more careful. The thing that is worrying for me is that the relationship between me and the staff is now soured and I don't know how that will work. ALso, they seem to want me to be the one to tell DD that she can't do things like touch the egg boxes and explain why. But what about when I'm not there and they're left on a table. The staff aren't always going to notice her touching things. Even if she's been told, she's only 4 so it just feels like they are more concerned about their liability rather than DD.

DD does like it there and I will speak to her about it. If I pull her out, I know she'll be at home until she starts school, and then what? WHat if I face the same issues again. We are actually considering a local private girls school as they have smaller class sizes so hopefully DD will be more closely watched iyswim? Also this school is the only one in the area that seems to have alot of experience of children with allergies and that gives me alot of reassurance as most of the other schools we've seen have either 1 or 2 kids with single food allergies and it seems that most of these are to nuts which seems to be well accepted and managed.

The thing I'm not sure about is DD would be the only one having packed lunch and if I go down the private route will the LEA still be there to support me if issues arise?

We are not well off and will be going without alot of things to afford this but this recent episode with the mursery makes me think with so many kids in a class and only 2 adults, DD is going to get missed and mistakes may be more likely.

I'm so confused about sending her back to nursery and also what to do to ensure things are better when she starts full time school.

I could just cry. It's so so so so stressful.

ALso, do I want to send her back when they have clearly lied about what happened to cover their backsides. I mean I can't understand that they wouldn't just tell the truth when they are looking after a 4 year old. How can I ever trust them to be honest and open with me when they've done this?

Trust yourself. All the things you are saying make sense. They lied and can't be trusted. Cam you go in with her for the Easter bonnet stuff then tks her out after that?

I wouldn't assume private is safer.

IME, state schools often have better checks& balances, procedures, staff training, ways to resolve complaints and so on.

Some private schools can be a bit amateur in comparison, and it might be the luck of the draw whether the particular staff caring for your DD will be fully tuned in to the allergy issue.

private is only plan b. the local primaries are oversubscribed and the one dd is at at the moment is our second choice. she won't be going there now. We're on the very edge of the catchment for our no 1 choice so if we don't get in then plan b will have to come into play. I can't believe that this is happening. it's all been so unneccesary.

I'm horrified by the lack of care and inclusion shown by this nursery . My son is also 4 and is in pre-school nursery. He's been there since last August and there hasn't been even one incident of concern - he is allergic to a loooooong list of foods. This is how it should be for every allergic child. It should be a safe place for them to go, where they feel the same as all the other children, and can have fun.

For me, once the trust is gone, it's gone. They have lied to you over their care of your daughter. Inexcusable, and I'd take her out.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.

Thanks Likeaninjanow.
It's really good to know that your DS's nursery are managing his allergies so well.

Can I ask, as I really don't understand it, how do they include him in things like baking?

DP thinks I'm overreacting and that they made a mistake and that they've tried to bluff their way out of it and that it's just one incident and I should let DD go back until we have found somewhere else for her to go. Also by not letting her go back she'll be stuck at home and therefore more excluded. I think DP is also of the opinion that I am overly careful. I must admit I do feel like I'm the only one who 'gets' how sensitive DD is as DP often says to me, if I ask him, that he wouldn't do what I do. I think he's referring more to the fcat that I don't like going to restaurants or pubs with DD as she can't eat anything and I feel it's mean. I deal with all of DD's allergies and appointments and GP visits etc. He isn't able to come to the meeting that the school have requested this week, and at the moment I don't want to go but feel I have to as DP thinks I should. I spent this afternoon writing a 5 page letter to the head detailing what happened. I'm feeling like it's me vs the world again. I have been feel like crying

If anyone can help me understand how a school should include a child like DD then I'd be very grateful as I'd love to go to the meeting armed with the facts.

I don't know. I am sure YABU but gosh, that is a loooong list of things she has to avoid and I suspect the nursery do think you are an over-fussy parent.

Especially if she has dealt with these things in the nursery environment (eg the eggs) and (to their mind and observation) has been perfectly OK.

OOps. That should say I am sure YANBU.

It is a long list :( and I've always known that there might be things DD just can't do, but the nursery have always talked about making things inclusive but I genuinely don't understand what a nursery could or should do to ensure this happens.

or a school for that matter.

Of course your child can be included. My DS is severely allergic to milk, wheat, eggs and nuts but he still does baking in school. The teacher speaks to me beforehand to let me know what they're planning to make and I come up with suitable freefrom alternatives and take them to school in a box clearly labelled with his name. They make sure one of the classroom assistants watches DS carefully whenever there is food around eg at lunchtime, snack times, cooking etc to make sure he doesn't touch anything he shouldn't (he's touch allergic too). Before he started school in Sept I was very worried that his allergies wouldn't be taken seriously so I sat down with the head, his teacher & classroom assistant, and the school nurse to go through everything. I explained the severity of his allergies, the importance of making sure the other children washed their hands & faces after eating & drinking, wiping surfaces carefully after food/drink (especially as here in Wales all Key Stage 1 kids get free milk every day - very scary!), explaining to the other children in his class about DS's allergies so that they were all aware & encouraging them not to swap food etc etc. Nurseries and schools have a duty of care and a duty to include all children. Would they let a diabetic child eat a load of sweets? Or tell a disabled child you can't take part in this activity because we can't be bothered to come up with something that you could be included in? It's discrimination and it's putting your child's life at risk. I suggest finding out if there are allergy nurses in your local area (normally based at the hospital) that could go into the nursery and do some training. You do need to put a complaint in, as difficult as they may be I think it's the only way to make it clear that what happened is unacceptable. Maybe ask the Anaphylaxis Campaign for some advice?

1. ring your local community school nurse, have a chat with them and then ask if they would visit with you and head of nursery to have a 'nice' chat, to go over a few things.

2. if no joy, from that, contact the local education authority, ofstead etc, as this is inclusion and despite training and medical advice things need improving.

3. have to say, that if you move yr child this is all going to start again, and just because they say they are experienced with allergies, its doesnt mean much,esp dealing with children with multiple allergies .also, just because they had a child with allergies in setting if parents were unaware of just how careful you have to be, depending on medical advice they may have recieved.. you're best bet is to work with these staff, and dont run away, be calm and firm and express things in simple, clear terms. they are the proffessionals and they should work with you, this is after all their responsibility as well.

i have given free presentations on food allergy management to student early years staff, and in lots of pre-sch, day nursery and state school settings. often they have had actual epi pen training , but lack the understanding of ige v intolerence allergies, and avoidance management within setting. Giving high quality up to date information on allergies, does give them more confidence in being able to include an allergic child, and support them during a medical emergency. perhaps you could ask the campaign to help with this? i have no idea where u live, but am happy to help if you want?

We are pretty much the same as freefrommum. The nursery staff speak to me in advance of any baking, and I provide alternatives. Also, the entire nursery class have baked egg & dairy free muffins using a recipe I provided.

On his first day at nursery, I stayed to observe how snack time works. I noticed the children are encouraged to pour their own milk. My DS2 is touch sensitive to milk, but I didn't want to isolate him or restrict the other children's freedom, so I provided a milk jug with a lid to minimise spillages. someone always sits beside him at snack time to supervise too. I found it really helpful to spend the morning there.

Before he started I met with the Head to stress how very allergic he is. I also then met with all the nursery staff and went through it all again. To be honest, I think they're quite terrified of what could happen if they make a mistake.

I do understand why you don't want to take her out, if she'll be stuck at home for a long time. That does seem very unfair. Maybe it's worth having one final big push, to explain the issues and the likely outcomes of their errors?

Hello again
Thanks everyone.
The thing about baking is that I did ask about the ingredients beforehand, and provided a bag of flour as they had everything else including dairy free spread. They seem reluctant to 'make' the whole class make food with ingredients that are safe for DD, so she goes in the first group and does the baking and they then do the rest of the class in small groups with wheat flour.
I did ask them if all the kids would be using the WF flour but was told no.
Eragon, having done nothing but think about this over the weekend, and for the reason of not excluding DD further by keeping her at home, I'm going to have a meeting with the nursery (again) to make sure they understand.

I wrote to and spoke to the head who was very apologetic. I wrote to her on an email detailing exactly what had happened and what had be said, and she sent a detailed response back addressing the points I'd made. The staff are still maintaining that this was an oversight. I still don't think they had considered the care plan. If it was an oversight then they had 2 on that day. They say that they let DD come out of nursery with her biscuit so she could be 'proud' of this, but they assumed it would be thrown away anyway. The fact is they still allowed her to handle egg in the first place, then let her leave with the biscuit and failed to mention this to me. I get the feeling that if I labour this point it will fall on deaf ears as they have this as their excuses reasons and that's the story they're sticking to. The head admitted that they were so busy focusing on the wheat allergy that they overlooked the egg. WHat worries me is that now they'll focus on wheat and egg and forget about the other foods that are in the care plan that DD can't have.

I'm going to send my email and their response to the allergy nurse and am hoping that she'll be able to come a visit the school. But, Eragon, if she can't for whatever reason, then I may take you up on your kind offer. We're in the Kingston upon Thames area, so not sure if that's convenient.

Part of me still thinks this will happen again, but Likeaninajanow, I think we will give it one big push as you say to see if we can get this sorted so DD can carry on there for the rest of this year. Part of me also thinks, I've already done this and it was all written down for them to see. All they had to do was look at the flippin plan. But, like Eragon says, I'd have to go through this again if I found somewhere else so I may as well give them another chance.

But, I'm going to take a few deep breaths and go in today and see what happens.

Unfortunately, DD isn't well this week and has had a high temp since Saturday, so it means she's at home so I haven't had to deal with sending her back in just yet.

I'll let you know the outcome of the meeting, but does anyone have any onfo on any resources about inclusion in schools and esp for allergic children? I have looked on Allergy UK and the Anaphylaxis Campaign websites but other than mentioning not excluding kids, I can't find anything more detailed as to what this means, so for example, should egg boxes be allowed in the class?

Thank you all again.

"This isn't a nursery for opening bottles". It's a nursery !! What else are they not bothering or just plain refusing to do? Take her out.

Did you go in today mumat39? How did it go?

Hi there

DD, has had a high temp since Saturday and was still poorly today, so no I didn't' make it in. I don't have any

I did speak to her allergy nurse and forwarded her my email and the reply from the head. She did say that she understands why I'm concerned but that DD will be starting school soon and will be exposed to things like this. I'll have a proper chat with her tomorrow, hopefully to try and understand her view. She said that she can also see it from there point of view. I just don't get that tbh.

I really wish I knew what a school/nursery should do to keep DD safe. It seems that everyone has a different experience/expectation.

I guess I'm as worried about DD going back into the nursery here, as well as when she starts full time school in September.

I'll call the school tomorrow to rearrange the meeting. It's such a shame DD is unwell this week but if I'm honest then I'm relieved I haven't had to send her in.

Thanks for asking Likeaninjanow. I'll let you know what happens with the nurse and also once I've had the meeting with the school.

Hello everyone.

Just thought I'd post an update as there were so many of you that kindly replied to my very stressed out post.

The egg incident happened on the thursday and I kept DD at home on the Friday as I was definitely going to remove her. On the Saturday, DD came down with a bug that DS had had a week or so earlier and she was basically running a high temp for about 7 days, so I didn't send her in. I was relieved that I didn't have to although I obviously wish she hadn't been unwell.

I finally spoke with DD's allergy nurse who said that she though that they'd probably made a mistake. She also said we've been lucky that the school have done so much to accomodate DD. I nearly asked her what have the done, but didn't. I asked her about what it means to be inclusive and she said that it varies from school to school. After she said we'd been lucky I felt like I'd made a fuss about nothing. :(

SHe also said that maybe I should let DD handle egg boxes, even though it was one of the allergy dieticians (in her team who'd told me to avoid these??).

She said she'd speak to the nursery and that was that, really. So although she sympathised, she said that I need to accept that DD will be exposed to more when she starts school in September.

I am never confident about what I am doing and have been told by many people to 'just relax' and 'let her try stuff' but my instinct has always been right so although it chips away at my already fragile confidence, I try to not let it get to me.

ANyway, DD went back to nursery a couple of days ago and I was reluctant to take her but did it anyway. The teacher sort of apologised in amongst a chat about baking for the next day.

They were going to make chick faces, like mini pizzas with muffins, cheese, tomatoes and peppers. I said that DD had never handled or eaten raw tomatoes or peppers or cheese. Remembering what the allergy nurse had said, I asked them to make sure she washed her hands immediately afterwards so I provided about 4 slices of her GF/WH bread and some mild cheddar, for the kids who would have been in the little baking group with her. She's never had this cheese (or any cheese) before, but was something the nurse mentioned a while ago. I wasn't sure about this at all and ended up waiting by my phone for a call from the school. I didn't like it but was listening to the advice from the nurse. :(

When I went to collect her, she came out handed me the chick face. I noticed that her face was a little red in patches. and that she had a teeny weal on one side. So, I don't know if it was the ingredients, or the baking tray they used, or the fact that her little bag was in a pile with the other chick faces, which had been made using wheat flour muffins.

We got home and I gave her a shower and when I undressed her she had a rash across her chest, and another could of weals in between 2 knuckles on one hand. Again she didn't need piriton and it seemed to settle.

I really don't know what to do about baking. SHould they have not had wheat based ingredients? I know that's impossible but what does inclusive mean? Is this what I have to do, just quietly watch and wait for DD to maybe have a reaction? Am I being overprotective? I am SO SO confused. I feel like I could cry.

This evening at about 6.30, I had an unexpected email from DD's allergist where he said that he will call me tomorrow as he feels I need more support so that I can then support the nursery. He also mentioned that my email to the head was over 2800 words long , but I wanted to document what had happened so it was as long as it had to be.

Sorry for the long post again, I don't seem able to be concise. :(

This is so hard! I don't have any answers (as you know from my other thread!) but I am thinking of you...

It's good that your DD's allergist is wanting to give you more support. I smiled when I read about your email to the head being over 2800 words long - that is impressive!! But your ability to access support should not depend on your ability to be concise.

Let us know how you get on.

i hope things work out with the school, and will work out the distance from me if you would like me to visit the school!!(just in case, your allergy doc might be able to help with a letter and idea of the normal protocals that should be in place.)

let us know how it goes, offer still stands.

Hello again Eragon

Thanks so much for your offer. I definitely haven't forgotten. I need to speak to the nurse again to see whether she has spoken to the school again and whether she is going to do a site visit.

The allergist was going to call today, but I was out for a bit so if he did, I missed him.

Thanks again, and hope you have a lovely weekend. :)

Eragon, I've sent you a message :)