The hypocrisy surrounding alcohol

[cookiebee]

I was commenting on a thread that was discussing the proposed measures for further restrictions on smoking, that is the banning of smoking in beer gardens and other public spaces. I’m an ex smoker and drinker for health reasons, I’ve had lots of support from you lovely people in the alcohol support section and hopefully have helped in turn and find most of you a bit more rational around this subject than those who comment on AIBU.

So on that thread I posed the question to anyone who is for these restrictions and the eventual phasing out of cigarettes, how would you feel if we stopped selling alcohol to anyone born after 2009 to try and phase it out, I wasn’t asking about the practical aspects of it, more the taking of something that is pointless in our lives and trying to be rid of it, the same way that we are treating smoking. My point is if you let them come for one pointless activity, then eventually they will come for others, the ones that YOU love.

I never actually said I wanted alcohol banned, but have so far been told to go live in a Muslim country, where alcohol is banned! That prohibition didn’t work, well I never said it did! Also that my arguments don’t even make sense because there’s no second hand effects of drinking like their are with smoking, I argued that actually there are plenty of knock on effects from drinking, as we all know here.

I just really don’t like the hypocrisy that surrounds people, sitting there with their glass of red and judging others like smokers for example. As soon as you even suggest threatening alcohol they are up in arms about it, of course suggesting that THEY don’t have an issue with alcohol, they are different, it’s people like smokers or drug users that are the real problem. Drinkers don’t see that their vice is a huge issue and that yes, the government could one day come for them with health labelling and restrictions on the sale of alcohol and where it can be served, the price could rocket, it could happen just as it is with smoking. But of course alcohol is the last socially acceptable drug, people don’t want to believe it could happen, they get defensive.

I absolutely hate the ‘nanny state’ as they put it interfering with our lives, but interfering they are, and they will come for all someday, including that glass of Chablis that is sooooo much more acceptable than that cig hanging out someone’s mouth.

If anyone even would like to discuss this, please don’t write post after post about why it wouldn’t work, I’d like to more hear your thoughts on why people get defensive about this and why they think alcohol isn’t actually a serious problem that needs addressing, I’m hopeful of a discussion, but I could of course regret this gamble lol.

So why is alcohol so untouchable, do you think there will eventually be heavy pricing and warning labels, would this be a good thing. There is no longer a safe recommended limit on consumption and the glass of red being good for the heart myth has been debunked. We socialise just fine as youngsters without alcohol, so what exactly is its use, apart from ruining lives from the very first sip?

Well I'm very anti smoking so welcome legislation that will eventually mean no one can legally smoke.
But I'm not happy about some of the proposals about putting in more restrictions on outdoor areas where people can smoke. If it produces a society where people can only smoke in their homes then that will be really bad news for those who live with smokers because of the devastating effects of second hand smoke.

You say in your post that there are no such second hand effects from alcohol. Well I would question that assertion. Domestic violence, fights and violence in general, days lost at work, events ruined for other people because of drunken behaviour, the cost to the NHS mopping up the after effects of alcohol. That's the list of the second hand impact of alcohol that I can think of and it's certainly not exhaustive.

Having said that I'm not in favour of banning alcohol.

And I do think there is a lot of hypocrisy over the criminalisation of some drugs when people can use alcohol legally.

@Neverstophoping thank you for your post, I appreciate your input, I can’t argue with your views on smoking as they are correct, but I will say that in my mind smokers are just such an easy target compared with drinkers. It was possibly my bad sentence construction, but you’ve misread part of my post, someone on a thread suggested that their are no second hand effects from alcohol and I argued the same points back at them that you have mentioned, there are huge health and societal problems from alcohol, so we are in agreement there, I’m sorry for the layout of my paragraphs.

Yes I've reread your post and I see I misread it the first time. Sorry about that.

Not everybody who uses alcohol is addicted to alcohol. Everybody who smokes is addicted to nicotine.

Some alcohol has been proven beneficial. You can’t say the same about smoking. Alcohol isn’t affecting anyone else’s body, other than the user. People can easily make alcohol themselves, so it would be much harder to ban than cigarettes.

Im not in favour of the pub garden cigarette ban by the way. I think it will absolutely decimate pubs. As an ex smoker I can tell you that there is no smoker on earth who is going to go to a pub and not have a gag - it would be a miserable experience.

Drinkers don’t see that their vice is a huge issue

For some it's not a huge issue though? It's not a vice. A glass of wine with dinner is nice if you're not addicted or you don't drink to excess. For those people, isn't it like asking them to give up chocolate or cake, ie to give up a treat?

Obviously alcohol can have all the negative aspects you've mentioned. Chocolate has some too (obesity crisis). They can both still be considered treats as part of a healthy diet. Smoking isn't usually considered a treat ime, more an addiction.

Sorry, x post @Icannoteven.

I don't drink or smoke so have no skin in the game. But loads of people drink moderate amounts, with no addiction, and no ill effects on others. I don't think that's true of smoking. One smoker in the house, even in different rooms etc, has bad effects in children's health for example. But when I used to drink, I could have one small glass in the evening and it would have zero ill effects on DC.

I stopped because even one small glass (and it really was a small glass) was just no longer agreeing with me, made me feel a bit headachey so I stopped.

I agree with @Coffeeatthelocalmarket's post as well.

Interesting post OP!

I think you make a really valid point about the hipocrisy of it. It's easy to list a whole range of reasons for why society in general views a nice glass of wine over dinner very differently to a fag huddled in a smoking shelter. But when you strip away all the prejudices around smokers vs drinkers, what is the difference really?

My immediate thought is that drinking is something that can be actively enjoyed without any form of addiction, whearas smoking is almost always about satisfying a craving? Lots of people who rarely drink still enjoy a the occasional glass of wine, but smoking is (usually) only enjoyable for people who smoke regularly. I know some people do enjoy 'social smoking' but I'd imagine it's a lot less common?

So I think my answer would be that smoking has a stronger association with addiction than drinking.

I think that it would be right to ban alcohol in this way in the future. After all, Professor Nutt’s research shows that it is the most damaging drug to society. Nobody wants to hear this though.

You all make very good points, but one thing I’d consider with the enjoyment of one glass of wine with dinner, just why? One argument is taste, but without the slight buzz alcohol gives, most alcoholic drinks taste awful in reality, so people are really addicted to that effect it gives you. Also when most first start drinking alcohol, we have to persevere with it, it tastes fowl, but we love the effect it provides, that is what keeps us coming back, even for that one glass! Alcohol is a poison that is mixed with things to make it more palatable, our bodies are actively trying to get rid of it when we drink it, so my argument would be it’s not necessary unless it’s that glow we are craving, which is what’s desired even with just the one glass, so anyone drinking is addicted to that, otherwise just drink tonic or similar. Even one glass here and there eventually makes your body reject it, just a thought on the idea of anyone not being addicted because they can just have the one.

I don’t think alcohol is pointless though

For people who can manage not to abuse it (most) it’s a good relaxant and aids social situations.

I get that some people can’t handle it, and further more some people get very troublesome on it, but I am reluctant to deny everyone (very much including me) the pleasure of it.

Wine and whisky don’t taste awful at all. It’s an acquired taste but so is blue cheese or whatever - lots of complex flavours are acquired tastes.

I loathe smoking so anything that reduces that is fine with me.
I do actually think that we have an issue with our attitude to alcohol in The UK though, it seems that you can't enjoy yourself without it.
I rarely drink now because it makes me feel ill after just a couple and I don't tend to drink at home at all. I still enjoy myself if I go out as much as when I used to drink more and don't feel ill.
Having said that if someone sits next to me outside a restaurant or pub and has an alcoholic drink I won't need to move because I hate the smell and it makes me cough.

Drinking is deemed more "socially acceptable" than smoking, in fact drinking is even encouraged, promoted. We hear of "beer o'clock" or "mummy wine time". As well as being sociable alcohol is also used as a 'reward' for a hard day or as a way to 'unwind'. That alone is a dangerous slope.

Alcohol will NEVER be banned. It brings in too much government revenue via taxes etc. Both smoking & drinking are addictive. Alcohol can have far reaching consequences
It affects families, communities.

I feel like the drinking age should be increased to 21 & I feel like society needs to step back from promoting Alcohol.

Despite what I've just said I have European friends where it's not uncommon for a 10 or 12 or old to have a sip of wine with a meal. Alcohol is used in moderation & doesn't seem as problematic. So maybe the Europeans are on to something...

I think alcohol is so acceptable because:

It's interwovwn into thousands of years of human culture.... It's in the Bible, it's always been a part of human life.

It's a huge industry and wealth generator.

It's benefitted from lengthy and detailed marketing and is deeply embedded in sports advertising.

However: alcohol consumption is decreasing in Ireland. The under 35 s are less enthusiastic about it and less reliant on it. It is slowly becoming less fashionable.

It's fattening, it's toxic to the heart, it's dehydrating.

Lots of high achievers are not big drinkers, most athletes are not heavy drinkers.

Alcohol to adults, is like sweets to kids, of course there is a reluctance to let go, of something that makes you feel good in the moment.

The people who can't accept that alcohol is detrimental to our bodies and society are either immature, addicted, or brainwashed by marketing and culture.

I m personally not supportive of banning alcohol, but do support detailed education about it's effects on the body. Moderation is key...... Now I just need to apply that.

Well this is a very interesting point to me, what does alcohol abuse look like to you or anyone? Is it that person passed out in front of the betting shop or is it equally a parent who has a couple and doesn’t realise that their kid hates the way they are when they are drinking, could be as little as two drinks. It’s not just people who get shit faced, it’s steady drinkers who can get into issues as well, but no one ever thinks that’s a reflection on themselves. Also why do we need it to aid socialising, we got on fine as kids!

I feel a bit weird about the whole thing. Not convinced about banning smoking tbh.

But if you look at the governments argument, especially around what smoking costs the NHS, if you are banning one, both should be banned. Smoking costs the NHS a fortune. So does drinking.

They do keep emphasising ‘smoking related deaths’ which is much higher than drinking related deaths. But the say ‘smoking costs the NHS millions and we need to plug this gap’.

Drinking costs the NHS a huge amount when you look at support for alcoholics, people being Taken to hospital after drinking too much on a night out, all alcohol related illnesses, transplants, accidental injuries, therapy for family members (where it’s taken up), gp appointments and so on.

How much money is wasted each year by people reaching out for help and then not sticking to it, because they aren’t ready to quit yet?

Then the costs to the rest of the country. Police to patrol weekend nights in city centres, ambulances and staff, police and medical staff having time off work after being assaulted by drunks, people phoning in sick due to hang over, dealing with drunk drivers, dealing with alcohol related violence, the DV that happens with drink as a trigger, social services trying to keep families together when parents have drink problems etc. all that costs money too.

So if we are going to ban one to save money and help the NHS, I think both should be. But I don’t really agree with banning either.

I think there's a big difference between smoking and drinking. Having 1 or 2 drinks isn't ant-social, a cigarette is. Sitting next to a smoker is horrible, but someone can have a drink or two without disturbing anyone.
A lot of things that are nice/fun have a slight addictive element, such as chocolate, sweet or fatty foods, gambling... but these things are fine in moderation.
Cigarettes are bad for you from the first one!

most alcoholic drinks taste awful in reality, so people are really addicted to that effect it gives you

I disagree. I really genuinely like the taste of a dry white wine. I find it very annoying that the alcohol free wines have a sweetness to them that dry alcoholic wine doesn't have.
I also wasn't addicted, nor was I fussed about any effect it had on me. A glass of a wine I liked was like having a pudding for me, a little treat that I enjoyed the taste of but that I didn't have too much of, in the same way I wouldn't eat too much chocolate cake or similar.

Annoying that it started giving me a headache really.

You can't say most alcohol tastes horrible, different people have different tastes. I don't like the taste of coffee, but I can believe other people do.

You all make very good points, but one thing I’d consider with the enjoyment of one glass of wine with dinner, just why? One argument is taste, but without the slight buzz alcohol gives, most alcoholic drinks taste awful in reality, so people are really addicted to that effect it gives you

Enjoying the effect it gives you is not the same as being addicted to the effect it gives you though, is it? My mother-in-law, for example, gets a bit giggly after half a glass of wine and clearly enjoys it. However, I don't think I've ever seen her have more than a glass and a half, and she only drinks rarely.

And no, most alcoholic drinks don't taste awful. Some do though!

" the government could one day come for them with health labelling and restrictions on the sale of alcohol and where it can be served"

But there are already health warnings, restrictions on the sale of alcohol and where it can be served! Are you not familiar with the alcohol licencing laws?

I imagine that the profile of costs and benefits is just different for alcohol and tobacco, and that is why the restrictions are not identical in each case. Why should they be identical, any more than (say) the different sets of restrictions on driving and gun ownership??

Alcohol causes terrible harm to those who do and don't drink, and is entirely unnecessary. The scale of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are yet to be fully appreciated by the population, due to stigma, but it's thought to be more common than autism.

I'd be glad if smoking, vaping and alcohol were banned, and those who have profited from addiction should be fined.

most alcoholic drinks taste awful in reality

I disagree-there are many different types of wine that are lush!

Would be happy to ban chocolate though, I can take or leave that ;)

Ok il correct my statement, alcoholic drinks don’t taste awful, but alcohol does, it’s why it’s mixed with nicer tasting things so we can get it inside us, I’ve yet to really be convinced by anyone that they drink purely for the taste and not the effects, otherwise why bother at all. But yes I definitely agree, a nice dry flavoured drink is good!