The hypocrisy surrounding alcohol

[cookiebee]

I was commenting on a thread that was discussing the proposed measures for further restrictions on smoking, that is the banning of smoking in beer gardens and other public spaces. I’m an ex smoker and drinker for health reasons, I’ve had lots of support from you lovely people in the alcohol support section and hopefully have helped in turn and find most of you a bit more rational around this subject than those who comment on AIBU.

So on that thread I posed the question to anyone who is for these restrictions and the eventual phasing out of cigarettes, how would you feel if we stopped selling alcohol to anyone born after 2009 to try and phase it out, I wasn’t asking about the practical aspects of it, more the taking of something that is pointless in our lives and trying to be rid of it, the same way that we are treating smoking. My point is if you let them come for one pointless activity, then eventually they will come for others, the ones that YOU love.

I never actually said I wanted alcohol banned, but have so far been told to go live in a Muslim country, where alcohol is banned! That prohibition didn’t work, well I never said it did! Also that my arguments don’t even make sense because there’s no second hand effects of drinking like their are with smoking, I argued that actually there are plenty of knock on effects from drinking, as we all know here.

I just really don’t like the hypocrisy that surrounds people, sitting there with their glass of red and judging others like smokers for example. As soon as you even suggest threatening alcohol they are up in arms about it, of course suggesting that THEY don’t have an issue with alcohol, they are different, it’s people like smokers or drug users that are the real problem. Drinkers don’t see that their vice is a huge issue and that yes, the government could one day come for them with health labelling and restrictions on the sale of alcohol and where it can be served, the price could rocket, it could happen just as it is with smoking. But of course alcohol is the last socially acceptable drug, people don’t want to believe it could happen, they get defensive.

I absolutely hate the ‘nanny state’ as they put it interfering with our lives, but interfering they are, and they will come for all someday, including that glass of Chablis that is sooooo much more acceptable than that cig hanging out someone’s mouth.

If anyone even would like to discuss this, please don’t write post after post about why it wouldn’t work, I’d like to more hear your thoughts on why people get defensive about this and why they think alcohol isn’t actually a serious problem that needs addressing, I’m hopeful of a discussion, but I could of course regret this gamble lol.

So why is alcohol so untouchable, do you think there will eventually be heavy pricing and warning labels, would this be a good thing. There is no longer a safe recommended limit on consumption and the glass of red being good for the heart myth has been debunked. We socialise just fine as youngsters without alcohol, so what exactly is its use, apart from ruining lives from the very first sip?

Yes I’m familiar with them, which is why I asked the question about thoughts on FURTHER restrictions regarding alcohol in the same vein as the gradual smoking restrictions, the idea that all those against smoking, be careful what you wish for, they will come for something you enjoy. All that’s been proven is that this will definitely get people’s backs up, most seem to have just jumped to the defensive of the flavour of alcohol being insulted.

There are no benefits to smoking - people do it because after the first few they can't not do it, because it's inherently addictive. Most people would argue that alcohol is different - it has 'benefits' in the sense of simple enjoyment, and while problematic drinking is common, and hugely damaging, the majority of people who drink are not addicts, and don't have a harmful relationship with alcohol. The fact that people like the physical effect of even a single drink does not make them addicts.

I’d like to more hear your thoughts on why people get defensive about this and why they think alcohol isn’t actually a serious problem that needs addressing,

Alcohol use is deeply ingrained in UK culture - the nation's favourite drug of choice.

I've got no beef with the people who have the occasional take-it-or-leave-it small glass of wine with Sunday lunch but that isn't most of the people that I know. Most of the people I know drink in excess of the NHS 14 units per week suggested limit - some dramatically so. The effects are not simple, linear cause-and-effect but we know that, statistically, this is high-risk drinking.

People just think of the 'fun' of drinking, they don't want to think of all possible horrendous consequences.

On a brighter note, it's encouraging that Big Alcohol has been seeing sales falling in recent years and that this has prompted them to develop AF alternatives for a growing market of non-drinkers or just people who want non-sugary /AF 'grown up drinks' some of the time.

Well if you're talking about the effects on society surely you should also ban sugar. Look at the issues with obesity in this country and the cost to the NHS. You should also ban fast food and gambling.

The US tried prohibition and that just drove consumption underground very much like the increase in tobacco prices has driven the black market in dodgy tobacco containing God knows what.

I think at the end of the day it depends on whether you are comfortable with the state telling you how to live your life. I know that you could say that people are not responsible enough and that banning smoking indoors has reduced the amount of smokers. Sadly it has created vaping and we are only just beginning to find out the negative health effects of this.

I do see where you are coming from OP but I feel that this could be a slippery slope.

@KATHSTYLE i think people get so defensive because alcohol is a highly addictive substance and even one drink is too many, it’s a poison, people crave it from that first drink, even maybe very subtly, but that pleasure hit is there. They seem to judge smokers as worse though, they will say its more addictive with no pleasure, well it is pleasurable to a smoker, in the same way drink is to a drinker.

@feellikeanalien you are right, a big point of this is that it’s all a slippery slope, it starts with one thing, and one day they will come after something someone else loves, sugar is a perfect example of something incredibly harmful. It’s the same concept as hospital treatment, some would argue we shouldn’t treat smoking related illness, or alcohol related illnesses, because they caused it themselves, but that would extend to ignoring a skier with a broken back, they didn’t need to ski, they brought this on themselves, it’s a definite slope.

I am happy to see any form of smoking anything banned completely.

Personally, I would have no issue with the same happening with alcohol but I accept many people can enjoy just a couple of drinks occasionally and don't get anywhere near the NHS suggested limits.

I'd have no issue with the same happening with drugs of any kind that had not been prescribed for that person for medical reasons. I'd support harder sentences for any drug-selling/dealing.

I am 45 and I find the older DH and I get the less alcohol interests us at all. Last night we went out with 4 friends and it turned out the restaurant had no alcohol license- none of us were bothered. We occasionally have a drink but if I never had alcohol again I wouldn't miss it. I was quite shocked by how many prople were absolutely pissed by 8.30pm in Newcastle. The same was true last Sunday. We were on a train back from Edinburgh, got into Newcastle at 9.30pm and it was full of absolutely pissed people in their 20s and 30s- shouting, swearing, laughing raucously, getting aggressive, smart-arsing the staff. They got off with us in Newcastle and the Central Station was full of others like them, on nights out, women in barely -there clothing, orange make-up, slug eyebrows, blotto scoffing Gregg's pasties, men in groups pissed, showing off, the language was awful. Greggs must have made a fortune. It was all alcohol-fuelled.

I agree with you OP. I think alcohol does way more harm to society than smoking and I also don't agree with all the people saying "all smokers are addicted but all drinkers are not"
I know I used to smoke socially for years after I "gave up" smoking. I actually smoked more often after it was banned in pubs and nightclubs because I genuinely liked the comraderie of chatting with other people outside in the smoking area. And actually I wouldn't EVER get that low level just one more, quick, before they ring the bell panic that I used to get with alcohol.
I do agree that smoking seems to pull people into more obvious addiction more quickly than drinking does but surely that's because people can pretty much smoke all day. You couldnt go out for a 5 minute beer break a few times a day at work. If you did though I'm sure you'd be very quick in the decline to full blown alcoholic.
I definitely think the hypocrisy is because people don't like to accept that alcohol is a harmful drug because THEY don't want to have to give it up.
I used to work with a guy who was absolutely scathing about illegal drugs. Wanted much higher sentencing, even spoke about the death sentence for dealers (not sure he was serious) but would happily chat about the 12 beers he and his 19 year old son had each the previous Saturday night as though it was a bit of fun.
Full disclosure though - I'm the daughter of alcoholics. One of whom died from alcohol in their 40s and a recovering addict - to both smoking and alcohol - myself.

With no idea on the practical aspects of it, I'd fully support restrictions on alcohol. I think it's the bain of society for all the reasons mentioned by @Neverstophoping . Another poster made an interesting point up thread that not everyone who drinks alcohol is an alcoholic. So true but so deceiving, the reason is many people in the UK approach the threshold of 'alcoholic' behavior, with a significant portion of the population falling into this category. They drink excessively but not so much they need support to quit. Every Friday night you see both men and women intoxicated staggering about shouting abuse, getting into fights and being carted off to A&E. I've lost count of the number of women on MN that have confessed to cheating on partners but it's not their fault, it was the alcohol and posters sympathetically agreeing with them. I think we would all live in a much more harmonious society if alcohol consumption was reduced, but I know it's never going to happen.

Hey OP, where have you read that red wine in moderation is no longer considered good for the heart? A quick google and I couldn't find anything on this - all the articles I can see still point towards there's being a positive link. Thank you xxxx

Why does the UK specifically have the issues with problem drinking that @LuluBlakey1 describes?

It's not as simple as alcohol is available, therefore people will get shitfaced and behave terribly. We recently spent a few days in a European city (Ghent as it happens) and I was really struck by how profoundly different the whole vibe was. Young people (and older people too of course) enjoying their evenings in pavement cafes and bars, or sat with their friends on the banks of the canal. Alcohol was clearly being drunk but we saw nothing even approaching the kind of behaviour you see in the UK. Why is this?

@Shesshinysheila thankyou, you have made some excellent points, perfectly put, and a huge part of this was that I was interested in how people would feel if restrictions tightened on alcohol further. It is definitely a case of people feeling threatened that their alcohol would be taken when they are fine with other drugs being clamped down on and they don’t want to face having to give it up. I feel you can’t be joyful of going after smokers of cigarettes and weed etc, when you sit there sipping wine or beer that is one of the biggest problems humans face in terms of substance issues.

@LadeOde yes there is definitely deception and denial about people thinking alcohol is a problem to them, it’s a poison that even in small amounts gives negative affects in an accumulating way, it’s interesting people get defensive over the fact they don’t have a problem, but I’ve seen that alcohol seems like it isn’t a problem, until suddenly it is. Many with liver failure would never be guessed to have issues, but bam suddenly they are ill.

@ienjoyeatingcake just google something along the lines of ‘red wine being good for you debunked’ you will find some info of what I was referring to. It’s a back and forth argument, so neither of us will win it, but it’s interesting to see another aspect to something that’s peddled out so people feel comfortable with drinking what is essentially poison. Just to be clear on my bold statement there, I’m not a Victorian temperance ambassador, just think that if we start debating heavily on one subject, ie cigarettes, then we will end up talking a lot more about others.

@Woofwoofwoofgoesthewolfhound there are always arguments that other countries are more civilised with their alcohol consumption, but alcohol is still doing the same things to the body, I’m of course unsure if these other countries have similar rates of alcohol related diseases.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41572-023-00420-x#:~:text=In%20terms%20of%20individual%20countries,cases%20of%20FASD25%2C48.

FASD is a problem wherever alcohol is part of the culture.

@rabblenotrebel thank you for raising this important issue as part of this debate, it is important to highlight everything that alcohol can cause. My own mother actually drank and smoked through both her pregnancy’s, this was the 1970s and early 80s.

Alcohol is far more dangerous to a developing fetus than heroin.

OP, I am a very occasional drinker. There is no issue with this because....

• when I have a small glass of wine I don't force others to share it.
• by occasional, I mean I have a glass of bubbly with a birthday meal, maybe three times a year. In the winter I might very occasionally have an amaretto. In total about 10 units a year. I never want a second one.
• I enjoy it. It is a treat, much like I might have an indulgent dessert, and which I have about as frequently.
• Are you proposing we ban ice cream too? Plenty of people are addicted to sugar and given the current obesity epidemic, you could argue it does as much or more harm. Where will you stop?

I happen to disagree with preventing smokers from smoking outside in a separate area. I think it constitutes too much interference. I would support the ban on sales to those born after 2009 because they are not yet addicted.

If you drink alcohol unless you drink drive or become obnoxious and or abusive it does not affect anyone else sat around you

Smoking goes into other people's faces around you even outside

That to me is different

@Meadowfinch you ask if I’m proposing we ban ice cream too, well no, I mean I’m not even proposing we ban alcohol! My question was to people who are coming after smoking, how would you feel about FURTHER restrictions on alcohol, including the idea of not selling it to anyone born after a certain year, pictures of cancerous and diseased organs on the bottles, instead of pretty labels? All I’ve mostly got is a few people defending the taste of alcohol and that they only have a port at Christmas, so they are not a problem, so I fact I have my answer with anyone getting defensive about it. When someone comes after something you love, you don’t like it, but it’s ok for people who drink alcohol, which is one of the most devastating substances known to man, to judge what they deem problematic and vulgar, such as smoking cigarettes or weed, this is the hypocrisy surrounding alcohol I find. Even those who indulge rarely are fuelling quite a destructive industry.

Also, and this is not me gunning for you I’m just responding to a general argument for alcohol that I’ve heard quite a bit, the idea of alcohol as an occasional treat, akin to having a dessert. Well why bother having the alcohol at all, most peach cobblers or chocolate gateau’s aren’t powerful neurotoxins are they.

And ice cream, or even smoking, doesn't cause lifelong neurodisability in a fetus even before a woman knows she's pregnant.

So this is part of what I find hypocritical. So smoking deserves to be demonised and restricted further because it has the ability to ruin a few middle class people’s beer garden lunches. However smoking and consuming alcohol, even in small amounts cause many of the same cancers and diseases, and alcohol many many more societal problems, so surely it is and will be fair game for the same treatment one day soon.

This is a really interesting, thank you OP.

I do find the villification of smoking over the past 25 years, very interesting. Especially, as alcohol with all the damage done to society is ignored.

I smoke occasionally. I drink around 20 units a week. We entertain ALOT.

I am definitely not alone as most of my peers/ friends are the same. Recently, my DH and I have downloaded an app to track drinks and reduce to 14 units a week. It was a particular shock to my DH, who was in complete denial how much he could knock back.

However, these threads attract people who have skin in the game ( hate smokers, rarely drink) and a refusal to admit there is a really problem. The point that one drink doesn't hurt, cause addiction, affect anyone other than the individual is why there is nontraction to fix it.

With cigs, the cognitive dissonance is to one's self and immediate surroundings.

Alcohol, the cognitive dissonance is about society as a whole. It is a disinhibiter, and an expensive one. Accidents, street violence, STDs pregnancies, affairs, DV.

Has anyone seen a genuine stab at the costs that alcohol causes?

Yes, we should probably, ban smoking, alcohol and sugar if we apply equal rules. It is all definitely hypocritical and a bit depressing.

@Bansheed thank you so much for taking the time to post that, as you are correct, I’m realising that the thread is attracting exactly the type you mentioned on the whole. Your input is definitely welcome, you have understood where I’m coming from regarding the hypocrisy of it all.

Whilst I agree that our attitudes to various vices are not necessarily proportionate to their risk I think the genuine differentiator here is that there is no safe way to enjoy cigarettes whereas lots of people do enjoy alcohol very safely. I know many don’t but it doesn’t change the fact that small quantities of alcohol can be consumed as part of a healthy lifestyle. Therefore although alcohol abuse is a massive societal problem, it’s not the same as smoking in that fundamental aspect.

Because a little alcohol is potentially even beneficial and certainly not harmful for the vast majority of people. Then there's the fact than me sipping a g&t on table 3 has no baring on the children and dog seated (with a responsible adult I hope) at table 4 whereas smoking would get into their hair, clothes and lungs!

And wine tastes lovely as do some beers (not lager that tastes horrible)

"I think the genuine differentiator here is that there is no safe way to enjoy cigarettes whereas lots of people do enjoy alcohol very safely."

Sorry but this is nonsense. There is a "safe" (if you can call it that) level of smoking, just like there's a "safe" level of alcohol consumption.
If you were to drink a glass of champagne, say, 3 times a year, you would be very VERY unlikely to experience health problems because of it. The same goes for smoking, say, 3 cigarettes a year.

And as a few PPs - including me- have pointed out, there are almost NO recreational drugs, legal or illegal that cause as much damage to a developing fetus as alcohol.
You smoke in pregnancy? You baby might have a low birth weight. Take heroin? You baby may be born addicted and experience withdrawal. Drink alcohol? Your baby might be born with fetal alcohol syndrome.

Also how much DV to you hear about after smoking too many cigs down the pub? Or RTAs?

Really how terrible is it to smell smoke in a beer garden? It seems like a crazy level of cognitive dissonance we're hearing here.