** Sigh ** - age old question. To moderate, or not to moderate?

[Sillymummies123]

I've arrived at the phase in my recovery where I'm now starting to get passing fantasies about drinking now and then. I've been waiting for it, and I'm 4 months (with one brief planned one night of relapse within, which was yuck) sober, 2.5ish months on from relapse I think (don't quote me, but I don't keep track anymore).

The desire to drink hasn't entirely left, I think purely because I have "ALCOHOL WOULD MAXIMISE THE FUN OF SITUATION X" syndrome from having had alcohol as an adjunct to all fun all my life.

I gave up fairly successfully, didn't really look back. Have generally avoided the long term thought of never drinking again, though its the default plan and I've been very actively structuring social activities to "re learn" fun - most recently I had a 0.0 beer in an old pub with some family from out of town at night, after going out for dinner in a previous favourite cocktail haunt.

However, I'm getting the "I bet I could just have the odd sesh every 2-3 months. I'm acutely aware of the pitfall that it's purely the drug talking, and I've been well prepared for it. I think it's the change to autumn, and the fresh associations wirh cosy nights and Christmas, and I suspect I'm getting a bit of fatigue about consciously rewriting these associaitons.

However - part of me is like "there are soooo many people who drink every few months and otherwise crack on without it" - I believe many of them frequent this forum, as I've seen them before.

I know I'll get an onslaught of comments now reassuring me that it's a trick, and it doesn't work, but I am honestly genuinely curious to hear from those for whom it does work long term (but I suppose - why would they be on this forum).

You stopped drinking for a reason. There is no going back. This needs to be your life now and your decisions need to be sober ones.
To refer to it as recovery means you need to accept you are an alcoholic and drink was your past and it's not your future.

The desire to drink hasn't entirely left

It never will as long as you have the ‘I can have a drink and go back to AF’ mentality.

Once I made peace with the fact I will never drink again the whole AF journey became a lot easier. I rarely think about alcohol at all.

You sound like you're desperate for people to reassure you that it's quite possible to get completely wasted every few months and then be straight back on the wagon like nothing ever happened. And maybe you could. But how long before those three months become once a month? And then once a week? And then before you know it you're right back to where you started.

Reading what you write as someone who just has the odd glass, your thinking seems very far away from how a 'normal' drinker thinks IMO. Your complete association between fun and happiness and drink, the association of every season or special occasion with drink, the desperate desire to go on the lash, the constant reassurance of yourself? others? of how aware you are of pitfalls, tricks etc while not seeing that you're looking for someone to give you permission to relapse while lying to yourself that it will be fine for you because you found one other person in the world that says it's fine for them.

You're not curious, you're deluding yourself that it's curiosity. It's typical IMO of the sort of lies an addict tells themselves. You're looking for permission and support to go back to your addiction and I agree with others that you need to just decide alcohol is never going to be for you again.

Don't look for people to lead you down the wrong path OP.

Haha. Some harsh yet encouraging responses.

I agree that I stopped for a reason. The thing is, if I want to drink ill drink, if I don't I won't. I don't drink these days because it's bad for your health and causes weight gain. I want to see what kind of person I am without it, and how my mood changes. I have lost weight, have no measurable health benefit (though as a student doctor I know it's there), and feel, at all times, pretty average. I am not drinking becsuse i choose not to. I read lots of literature, including academic reviews, and i arm myself to that end by understanding alcohol as best i can. I choose not to drink, but if i choose id take the alcohol and the negatives - i would. The key element of my giving up alcohol has always been "I have to not want it". I have been overwhelmingly successful with this element - with only passing fantasies and cravings, which I see for what they are - classical conditioning- and undo it. I think life's too short to spend a life feeling in deprivation, though I understand that is the AA model and that there'll be advocates of that here.

Alcohol does cause an artificial high - it's odd to reprimand me for saying so, as though nobody else in the world drinks to have fun. I'm pretty sure if you took a cross section of the UK, people who "would be sad not to drink on Christmas" would far outweigh (almost to insignificance) those who don't care either way. As I say - I've chosen not to, but spend time analysing my reasons, the pros and cons, and to that end information gather where I can - for example seeking to hear from moderate drinkers here. I'm not so weak that a few randomers on a forum would "give me the permission to drink" - the decision to stop was on my own back, and the decision to remain that way is the same. I like to information gather, and it's quite patronising of the previous poster to tell me how I feel / argue my motives, though I understand that for many, alcohol dependence can't be faced head on and it has to be made into a boogeyman, so I try and look at harsh and all-or-nothing advice in that context.

Also - to the poster who "rarely thinks about alcohol" - I find that hard to believe as you posted within an evening of a post appearing on an alcohol support forum.

There are absolutely people who have a few drinks every few months and then stop again and are fine. But those people do that because they don't really like drinking, don't have much interest in it, and never had a drinking problem.

Do you know other sober people? I found it really helpful to learn from other people's experiences with attempts at moderation. Within my sober groups, people do occasionally decide they want to have a few drinks here and there. What happens is like The Script. They do, it's fine, they can moderate! So they do it again the next weekend, but end up going out for brunch or go for Sunday lunch the next day and have a few more. Then it's back to drinking every weekend/every day. And they disappear for a month or two. When they do re-appear, they're in bad shape, miserable, hating life and struggling to even have one AF day. Someone in a group I'm in just re-surfaced having been in hospital with a concussion after falling over drunk after a month of 'trying to moderate.' And then they have to go through the shit first weeks all over again.

If moderating after having a drinking problem was so easy, everyone would be doing it instead of quitting. But it's not easy. At this point, you've only had 2.5 months of continuously not drinking, and that's still the hard bit. And that's even with a planned day of drinking, so you sort of started your 4 months with the intention you'd drink, and now you're still wrangling with that. I'm not sure when it happened, maybe after about 3-4 months, but eventually a time came when I was put off by the thought of drinking.

Like we'd have friends over and dh and everyone would have drinks and it was similar to the way I feel when I see people smoking. I don't smoke and I've never had the urge to have a cigarette. When I see other people smoking, it's just a bit 'yuck, that must not be very nice'. I feel the same about alcohol now. Like I just wouldn't want to feel how it would make me feel and it's off putting when I think about it. I'm very happy with my AF drink or my cup of tea. But it took time to get there. And I had to sort of stop trying to negotiate my way into a reason to drink to let myself get there.

To respond to your comment: "Also - to the poster who "rarely thinks about alcohol" - I find that hard to believe as you posted within an evening of a post appearing on an alcohol support forum."

I think it's totally possible to rarely think about alcohol but still be engaged in the sober community. Nearly everyone who used to have a drinking problem is engaged in some sort of community to support them in their sobriety. That doesn't mean they are thinking about alcohol.

I also actually rarely think about alcohol, even at only 6 months sober. I mean, I think about it in the sense that I need to buy it sometimes because we're having friends over. Or I need to bring a bottle of whatever to someone's house as a gift. And every single day, I do something that involves talking about my drinking or supporting others who are sober, because that's what keeps me feeling healthy and well. But it's not because I'm interested in alcohol. I actually don't really think about it in terms of 'I want to drink that' or 'I miss that' or 'I remember going on holiday and having that drink'.

I think life's too short to spend a life feeling in deprivation

I agree. It was only when I became a non-drinker that I achieved that feeling of no deprivation.

When I drank alcohol I was repeatedly coming up against occasions when I felt forced to "deprive" myself. e.g. times when I would have to forego alcohol in order to drive. times when I had to forego alcohol to have AF days in the week, times when I had to forego alcohol because I needed a clear head the next day etc. etc.

Taking alcohol off the agenda was honestly liberating.

We can't know what drives you, how much fun it really is etc, but the fact you have posted in alcohol support suggests that you might have felt a bit worried about your drinking when you gave up, rather than just feeling like being a bit healthier. Many people only drink occasionally and have lots of fun, but I suspect they are different to us.

If it is the case, then you have done so well and I believe it will only get easier if you stick with it. Three months is the longest I have done, so no judgement from me. Why not just let the fantasies be the fantasies for a bit and keep on with what you are doing? If you have done 6 months by Christmas, you might be so proud of yourself you don't even want to break it.

I think your idea of ‘moderation’ is impossible.

Anyone who is referring to drink as a ‘sesh’ is not thinking of moderation in a real grown up sense. Moderation that might be toasting someone’s success with a glass of champagne or having one sloe gin at a winter picnic or occasionally having a glass with dinner if you were at a nice restaurant.

You are going to turn any of those examples into an excuse for a second glass, and a third and on and on. Because for you the party and the drinking are one. For most people the event would be the main thing.

"""However, I'm getting the "I bet I could just have the odd sesh every 2-3 months."""

I think if you'd said I bet i could just have 2 small glasses of wine every 3 months ..... I might say, give that a try

The fact that you are intending to try a sesh and are referring to alcohol in that way, also talking about alcohol drinking as an experiment, indicates to me that you are an alcoholic who should never drink again

Please ignore the comedy username, I'm not taking the piss.

I have a relative who can only ever binge drink or completely abstain. There is no middle ground. She's a lovely funny warm woman, but a nightmare when drinking because she will drink until she literally can't stand up.

Then she will go for months without any alcohol whatsoever. She has alcohol in the house and isn't tempted by it when she's abstaining. I have suggested that the havoc she wreaks by her binge drinking, even if it's only 3 times a year, just isn't worth the pain and embarrassment, the memory loss, the verbal aggression, the vomiting, the incontinence, caused by alcohol.

But she looks forward to, and plans in detail, her binges, which is disconcerting, and causes anxiety within the family when she rocks up to an event intending to drink. She only seems to enjoy the first two or three drinks, then she goes from tipsy to drunk and the fun stops. One of us always has to be on "Emma Watch" because she's not able to look after herself.

Personally, I think she should not drink at all because she can't have one glass of wine.

If you're relationship with alcohol is anything like this, embrace sobriety.

This is a really kind and helpful response. Thank you, and it really lends an interesting perspective to the crave. The smoking parallel is very interesting.

Thanks, really encouraging to be reminded of my original thinking and to refocus on that goal!

I failed to quote in my above replies 🙃

Hmm. This is a very interesting story. Thank you for sharing. I think I am/would be similar. I think I could manage the months off, and then the hard-core binge.

O.giess, as you all say, the issues are:

1. I might not be able to do the months off eventually. Would one negative life events disband my will power and cancel the whole AF journey?

1. I would still look forward to alcohol. I would therefore be in deprivation In-between, which would be against my goal of not living in deprivation.

1. Social embarrassment, money, health.

Hmmm.

My brain likes to repeat fun things. It learns quickly. I think that's the crux of the issue. Alcohol has provided much fun. I am, as an adult (and student doctor), obviously aware it has addictive properties, not to mention the lies is writes into my brain about it being needed. However, I'm very much a "go getter". E.g. I live for today, burn out fast, die young in my philosophy.

Then again - my motivations for not idrinking are because inhetween the weekend or nightly binges, I foresee a better life- energy, mood, weight in my future.

You're probably right that I should decide whether I do or don't drink full stop. Tobe honest, other posters have previously argued against that - that the "never again" is too big, and to go day to day. I'm very confused and I don't think I really know what i want or how i should approach alcohol. I cant say ive always had full control over mu drinking, but i also dont think anyone who drinks does. Societys night life, celebrations, are built around alcohol. I also dont believe that there are alcoholics and non alcoholics, just people at different behavioural stages in their consumption of an addictive substance.. I think it's tricker that I haven't hit "rock bottom" before. I've had embarrassing mornings and nights, which I would never want again, but socially and professionally, I've thrived. I don't want to hit rock bottom, but having not - alcohol WAS fun while I was drinking it. There was a very slight drop in mood and energy during the day when I wasn't, and i know objectively lt would kill me. Having seen neither of those things happen, however, it's hard to tangibly care about either. I am also close to ill health and death on a daily basis, have seen plenty of death in family throughout my life, and I feel life is fleeting and everyone takes it too seriously anyway, so do I care much about dying at 60, not 90? Ask me again when I'm 60 I suppose.

This whole journey was so bolstered by Annie Grace and the like - perhaps I should load up audible again and remind myself what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Anyway- bit of an inner monologue. I think I was writing more to consciously try and work through my attitude to drinking myself! * *

Also - to the poster who "rarely thinks about alcohol" - I find that hard to believe as you posted within an evening of a post appearing on an alcohol support forum.

I only saw your thread because scrolling MN is my bad habit. I regularly view the ‘unanswered threads’ for new posts, as I’ve read most of the others. I wasn’t loitering on the alcohol support threads.

I’m over 3 years sober but I very definitely used to think the way you do.

I really don’t think about alcohol from one day to the other at all. DH can sit here having a few drinks and it bothers me not, it doesn’t ever my head to join him. Whilst most people are now contemplating the festive season and Christmas drinking, I feel so angry at myself for all the wasted money, the wasted days feeling rough, the damage to my body… but mostly the money. I am pretty well off these days!

I wish you well, but no one ever regrets not drinking!

This book is an interesting read @Sillymummies123 you come across as having an analytical mind I think you might enjoy it 😊 I have a lot of time for this guy

The Biology of Desire: why addiction is not a disease (The Addicted Brain) amzn.eu/d/eME1Yje

Wow - I have been having a rough time today (I have a violent son with ASD who basically gives me anxiety and depression symptoms on the regular), no doubt causing my drinking contemplation and I've been a snappy, hissy bitch on this thread.

Just overwhelmed by the subsequent lack of judgement and continued kindness. Thanks guys. I'm not drinking today. That's all I can do every day, right?

For what it's worth - I'm not usually so cravey.

I've actually had a lot of success with breaking down my urges. Why do I want a drink in situation X. Often I get just as much happiness from having a nice food spread and an ice cold soft drink or AF beer. The actual drug itself doesn't really factor.

I can relate. My dd is autistic.
My decision to stop drinking was prompted by one of my closest friends being diagnosed with breast cancer. I wasn't happy with my relationship with alcohol. It felt too present in my life. It was a reward for good times, a compensation for bad times, a filler when I was lonely, a way to get 'happy'. My friend's diagnosis made me take stock. I was all my dd had and I needed to be healthy and alive for as long as I could be. My darling friend's dd was just 7 years old when she died.
A few years later everything started falling apart for my dd and we went through some incredibly difficult years (I'm a single parent). Terrifying meltdowns, violence and self harm. I had to stop work, dd was completely unable to attend any form of school ...
I never considered starting drinking again during this time, but constantly felt so relieved I didn't drink because I know that I would have been become dependent on it.
I still used to treat myself in the way you describe. Favourite foods, an AF sparling wine I particularly liked, chocolate etc.

Be kind to yourself. You've got a lot on your plate. Hopefully some thoughts from this thread will join in your internal conversations

I have decided to be a non-drinker having read Allen Carr's book on giving up alcohol. I mention it because Carr also mentions all drinkers being on a spectrum, as you have mentioned is your view. He also writes about 'deprivation' and how quitting is always going to be difficult if you think you are depriving yourself of anything.
It is as 'brainwashing' (although he refers to it as 'un-brainwashing' as I expected having known people use his method to stop smoking, but if you want some additional reading, it was a good buy and challenged some of my thinking about 'willpower'.

@Sillymummies123 that's funny, I just replied to one of your other threads and I had said one of the biggest challenges for any grey area drinker is moderation.

Bloody moderation!

In my heart of hearts I'm sure that moderation is a trap. The addictive voice within is calling out for it because it's what our brain knows, what society embraces. I know for me as a problem drinker, if I could "drink like a normal person" I would choose that over both problem drinking and sobriety. But. I don't think there is any going back once that line has been crossed. A lot of us with drinking issues use alcohol in a very emotional way to the point it interferes with our brain, reward centres, and some of us are genetically predisposed towards it too. The fight is real.

Having said that, moderation is part of the process I suspect? Spontaneous sobriety - where a big drinker wakes up one day and says I'm never drinking again and sticks with it forevermore, has to be pretty rare?! For many of us it's recognising there's a problem; then trying to deal with it. Which isn't easy at all. It's a vicious circle and something we all go through (multiple times).

You might enjoy the podcast Sober Powered, highly recommend.

I hope you have a better few days, whatever you choose, it's your path. I can't deny moderation crosses my mind frequently too.

Something that sticks with me is from Annie Grace. Visualising being stuck in the same drinking pattern you were in 5 months ago. Waking up feeling hungover and shit, 1 year from now. The room spinning, a blackout from last night. Your family giving you the cold shoulder and you don't know why. Feeling queasy and like the worst person in the world. Unlovable. The same in 2 years from now. In 5 years from now. In 10 years from now? Quite powerful.

I think there are people who can do the binge/restrict thing with alcohol but it’s rarely as clean cut as presented. It’s not one jolly night of drinking but more like a week, at the end of which they feel like shit and remember why they gave up and start at the beginning again. So a cycle of bingeing and quitting, with everything that entails. So it is moderation of a kind but not a particularly appealing kind, with the constant will I/won’t I stress of the uncommitted non-drinker.

In terms of your happiness, I’d say don’t do it. You’d lose so many of the benefits of not drinking. But I can’t deny that there people who manage it and don’t end up drinking all the time.

I’d ignore all of the above if you’re in recovery from a physical addiction.

4 months in with one relapse is still quite early days, and at that stage I wasn't really able to think about 'never again' even though I was feeling benefits of not drinking.

I'm 13 months in now and 'never' feels more feasible. I have had lots more fun alcohol free nights - some of them are fun without alcohol and some are more fun without alcohol. Occasionally it has grated - eg a weekend with friends where everyone else was hammered and I did go to bed earlier once everyone got to the repetitive and annoying stage, but I didn't envy them their hangovers and tbh it was clear that I would just have been repetitive and annoying too if I had been drinking.

The main thing stopping me at 4 ish months in and for a while after was the fear that if I had just one evening drinking, I'd be back to square one. And that didn't appeal at all. Now the main thing stopping me is a lack of habit - but on the much rarer occasions when the voice in my head suggests it could be fun, I'm still stopped by the feeling that my life is very much better now and that isn't worth risking for the odd 'fun drinking' night - especially as I suspect that would be not-all-that fun in any case

I went to a pub quiz yesterday with two friends. One of the friends slammed a pint, and then another within the first hour.

It was strange to watch. He then became a hit intense, contributed to conversations like he wasn't reading the room, a bit repetitive, almost like he was coked up.

It was certainly a good advert for not drinking and I had soft drinks and didn't even miss the booze!